The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

And the first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Sian Gwenllian.

&lt;p&gt;Poverty&lt;/p&gt;

Siân Gwenllian AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's efforts to tackle poverty? (OAQ51171)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: Our objective is to help and support everyone to live healthy, prosperous and rewarding lives. Our national strategy, ‘Prosperity for All’, sets out how we will build a Wales that is prosperous and secure, healthy and active, ambitious and learning and united and connected.

Siân Gwenllian AC: You confirmed here last week that the Government won’t publish a poverty action plan. Now, this is a huge disappointment and matter of concern to Plaid Cymru and the cross-party Assembly committee who have been studying this area. I understand that you are eager to work holistically and work on a cross-departmental basis, but, without a central strategy that you can follow, the work of different departments of Government, including measuring progress through targets and milestones, will be impossible to achieve. Can I ask you to reconsider this decision and ask you to create an action plan as a matter of urgency?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I would argue, of course, that the strategy does this already. It demonstrates the framework where the Government can work as a whole in order to enhance and increase prosperity and to consider cases of poverty in a manner that is more effective and connected. This isn’t something that belongs to any particular Minister or any particular department; it is something that the Government owns completely.

Angela Burns AC: First Minister, I see from reports today that your Government has refused to release full sets of data to assist the Prime Minister’s race disparity audit. And its findings are stark contrast for both the UK and Wales. I do wonder, though, is your reluctance in releasing the data because you haven’t got it, or is it simply that you won’t get it? And the reason why this is so important is because that data would help us to identify areas of poverty in black and minority ethnic communities, where we might actually be able to take some action and make some differences to those people’s lives.

Carwyn Jones AC: Oh dear, that is wholly untrue, because Scotland has refused to co-operate; we have not. I’ll give the Member a chronology of what we’ve done in the meantime. On 26 October last year, we agreed to the Welsh Government’s participation in the work. On 8 December last year, our equality team arranged for officials from the race disparity audit unit to attend the Wales race forum. On 21 December last year, we signposted RDAU to publish data. On 28 February this year, there was a meeting between our officials and RDAU in Cardiff. On 11 May, there was another meeting with RDAU. We were concerned at that point by an apparent lack of progress on their website. They asked us at that point, for the first time, to undertake work to analyse the Welsh data. We thought at that point that they would be undertaking that work. They acknowledged the lateness of that request. We made it clear that we didn’t have the resources to support that work at that time, and expressed concern about being asked to undertake such a large exercise before the launch date in July. At that point, we were informed that the Scottish Government had decided not to engage with the project.On 26 May, RDAU responded to a letter from us with a provisional list of data that would be on the website. On 2 June, again we agreed to continue working with the unit, by providing advice on the Welsh data sources, and providing data sets for the RDAU to analyse. On 4 October, a third meeting between officials and RDAU took place. They gave us a glimpse of the content of the website, but did not provide us with a copy of the 45-page report. I think we have engaged properly, and perhaps it shows the shambles at the heart of the UK Government that they cannot tell Wales and Scotland apart.

Jenny Rathbone AC: One of the things that’s absolutely designed to undermine the Welsh Government’s efforts to tackle poverty is the introduction of universal credit, rolled out across Wales. We’ve seen in parts where it has been rolled out that it’s led to an increase in rent arrears and numbers of people going to food banks. Now, the Scottish Government has got responsibility for the administration of welfare, which has enabled them to reduce the amount of time that applicants have to wait, to two weeks, which is the same as jobseeker’s allowance, and also, to ensure that landlords can continue to receive the rent payments directly. So, I wondered what conversations you’ve had with the UK Government on enabling us to mitigate the worst effects of this ghastly new proposal.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we know from experience that where we take control of aspects of the benefit system we get into a situation where the budget settlement is never enough. We saw that with the council tax benefit—£20 million was taken from that as the responsibility was transferred. So, I have no faith at all that the UK Government, if they were to transfer responsibility over universal credit, would actually transfer the budget to cover it and that is the problem. To my mind, what is needed is a proper benefits system across the whole of the UK administered by a Labour Government in London looking after the interests of the many, not the few.

&lt;p&gt;Heritage Tourism in North Wales&lt;/p&gt;

Hannah Blythyn AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on support for heritage tourism in north Wales? (OAQ51173)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are supporting a number of initiatives for heritage tourism in the north. For example, as part of the heritage tourism project, Cadw spent approximately £7.8 million improving and conserving some of its heritage tourism sites in the north.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, First Minister. As you are aware, there is a host of amazing heritage attractions right across north Wales, including St Winefride’s Well and Basingwerk Abbey in my own constituency, which I did my bit to promote with tourism videos over the summer, and would also benefit from enhanced brown signage along the A55. And of course, there is the Mold gold cape, found in 1833 in Mold and currently housed in the British Museum. I know, First Minister, you’ll be aware that I am keen to one day see the Mold cape exhibited for the first time back in the town where it was discovered. But by doing this, and working in partnership with the various stakeholders and representatives to make it happen and make it a reality, on Friday I was able to take the time to visit the British Museum and see the gold cape up close and also talk with the curators and representatives there. I’m interested in how major institutions can and should work in partnership with communities to bring our heritage closer to the people and to make it accessible to everyone. First Minister, do you agree that this is important and what support can be given to ensure that our past provides a legacy for our future?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we know that it’s hugely important that we celebrate our past but not live in it. We have a history that is the equal of any country in the world. The Member has mentioned the gold cape, which, of course, is of particular interest to her as the Member for Delyn. I know that there are discussions between our officials and the officials of Flintshire County Council in terms of what might need to be done. There’s a long way to go yet in terms of finding somewhere that would satisfy the British Museum in terms of security and the right environment to display the gold cape. But we know that artefacts from the past are hugely important in generating interest, generating tourism and generating money, of course, for local communities.

Darren Millar AC: One of the things that has the potential to damage heritage tourism is, of course, the proposals that your Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government unveiled last week for a potential tourism tax here in Wales. Whilst that might not affect you and your Cabinet colleagues so much given the luxury hotels that you must frequent on a regular basis, it could significantly impact on the lower cost end of the holiday market, much of it in my own constituency and your constituency, First Minister, namely on holiday caravan parks. What action are you going to take to ensure that people who are less well off don’t have their aspirations to have an annual holiday undermined by your ridiculous proposals for a tourism tax in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: He stands there and lectures us about the less well off when only a few days ago he wanted to get rid of the education maintenance allowance. There he is—he stands there—. In fairness the brass neck is shining in front of us. But the reality is that we can’t take lectures from the Tories about this. We know that tourism taxes exist in many countries in the world. It makes no difference at all to demand, but what it does is generate money for tourism businesses. It generates the infrastructure for tourism so that visitors contribute more, rather than local people—his constituents—having to pay more in order to provide the infrastructure for tourists. We think that’s a way of sharing the burden. We think that’s a good way of ensuring more money is available for tourism. I would have thought, given his constituency—. [Interruption.] Yes, I know it hurts. I know it hurts, but, given his constituency, I would have thought he would welcome anything that would ensure that visitors pay a little more to contribute to the local economy. He is against his own constituents’ interests.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Following the mess that your Government made of the issue of the iron ring at Flint castle, can I ask you what arrangements are in place now to ensure that any interpretation of heritage happens from a Welsh perspective and context and not from someone else’s perspective?

Carwyn Jones AC: We always interpret heritage from the perspective of what is good for us in Wales. We have a history of castles, castles that were built by an English king who wanted to turn Wales into some kind of fortress. Despite that, we celebrate that heritage, but we understand, of course, that those castles now belong to the people of Wales. There is a balance to be struck. For me, personally, there is nothing wrong in celebrating what we already have, because so many things that were done to the people of Wales are now controlled by the people of Wales.

&lt;p&gt;Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders&lt;/p&gt;

Leader of the opposition to begin questions from the party leaders—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last year, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals reported that they’d seen nearly a 10 per cent increase in animal cruelty cases that they’d had to investigate. The legislation and the ability to regulate in this area firmly rest with the Welsh Government. Following that 10 per cent increase in complaints, there was a 35 per cent increase in prosecutions here in Wales, where people were taken to the courts and successful prosecutions were achieved. The legislation, though, and the sanctions do not meet—or are not fit for purpose—the crimes that many people are perpetrating when the complaints are investigated. Will your Government commit to revising the sanctions that are available to the courts here in Wales so that they fit the crimes that are being reported to them?

Carwyn Jones AC: These are issues that we will keep under consideration. It’s not an issue that I’ve had raised with me personally—that the penalties are too low—but clearly we don’t want to see—. The fact that there are more prosecutions is a good thing, because that means that, actually, more people are being caught. It doesn’t necessarily mean that there is more crime, but more people are being caught. Nevertheless, we want to make sure that the penalties are appropriate to the crimes, and we’ll keep under review whether those penalties are appropriate now.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It is a fact that one case that was highlighted by the RSPCA was how a man fed his dog cocaine and then cut the ears off that particular animal, and had a 24-week sentence imposed on him. That cannot be right, First Minister. That’s the most that could have been attributed to that particular individual. There are plans afoot in other parts of the United Kingdom to substantially increase the powers available, and the sanctions available, when animal cruelty cases are brought before the courts—up to five years and unlimited fines. I ask you again: will you please take forward the proposals that are being looked at in other parts of the United Kingdom, so that the sanction, when such horrific crimes are reported, is available to the courts, and, ultimately, the full weight of that sanction can be brought against the perpetrators of such foul actions?

Carwyn Jones AC: I am willing to look at that, because the case that he mentions is very disturbing and upsetting, of course. I will write to him further on that. It’s not just the penalties; it’s the sentencing guidelines as well, because the maximum penalty is one thing, but the sentencing guidelines that govern what sentences should be imposed in certain circumstances are also important. So, the two things must run together.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I agree with you, but what is firmly in your court is the ability to make progress in this area. So, I welcome that you will be writing to me with more information in this particular area, but what is quite clear from the evidence that’s before us all of the crimes that have been perpetrated against animals that are defenceless—they can’t defend themselves—the number of investigations and complaints that charities are looking at, and the prosecutions, is that it would be good to achieve today a timeline of how your Government will take forward actions to improve the sanctions that are available, and firm up the sanctions that are available, so that we do not see sentences that aren’t fit for purpose. Can you please give me a timeline as to how your Government will take this forward, so we can see positive action in this particular area?

Carwyn Jones AC: I can provide more information in the letter that I send to him. These are important points that he raises, and what he has asked me there I will ensure is addressed in writing in a letter.

The Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, since the passage of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, what has your Government done differently?

Carwyn Jones AC: ‘Prosperity for All’ is an example of how we follow that Act, in terms of how we determine what we do in the future.

Leanne Wood AC: That’s not a very convincing answer, First Minister. The strategy that you’ve produced contains four cross-cutting themes, and the Act says that there are seven well-being goals. One of those goals—a globally responsible Wales—is not mentioned in your strategy at all. You imply that, because of the Act, you will use investment decisions, infrastructure decisions and planning decisions in a different way to the way in which you made those decisions in the past. Your Government is one of the public bodies listed under the Act, and you’ve got a commitment to goals such as sustainable development, a low-carbon economy, healthy functioning ecosystems and enhanced biodiversity. Does your support for the M4 black route meet with those goals, or are you shifting the goalposts and carrying on with business as usual?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, these are matters that need to be addressed via the public inquiry. We wanted it to be as broad as possible and to look at all the options, and we look forward to seeing the results of that inquiry when the work is completed.

Leanne Wood AC: We all know that it is your preferred option, and that sounds very much to us on this side of the Chamber like business as usual and a missed opportunity, First Minister. Now, in the national strategy, mention is also made of rural communities, the need to sustain the agricultural industry, and the world-class food and drink sector that you aspire to. You say that you’ll do this through post-EU agricultural and fisheries policy. Now, the need for us all to support Welsh farmers is obvious, given the contribution that they make to the Welsh economy, to Welsh culture and the role that farmers have to play in managing our natural resources. Plaid Cymru is calling for the same level of support for agriculture to be sustained until 2022 at the very least. That commitment has been given by the Westminster Government for England; First Minister, will you make that commitment for Welsh farmers now this afternoon?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I have said publicly that we will maintain the same level of support. The money has to be there, of course, and we’d expect it to be there, but what I have said, as she knows, is that I think that the current pot that is available should be maintained by the UK Government and distributed financially in the same way as before, and that money will then be used for agriculture. How it’s then used is a matter for the Government and the Assembly, but in terms of the overall money, of course we want that to stay the same after 2022, and I’ve said that several times in public.

The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Llywydd. It’s in the interests of businesses in Wales that export to make progress in the future trading relationships between Britain and the rest of the European Union. Is it not disappointing, therefore, that in a vote on this in the European Parliament last week, Wales’s Labour MEP and Plaid MEP voted for the Commission’s position not to negotiate further because we’ve apparently not made sufficient progress in the talks, which have been blocked, actually, by the European Commission? Aren’t these people no better than fifth columnists fighting for the interests of a foreign power against the interests of Britain?

Carwyn Jones AC: They’re Spanish fascists now, are they? Well, I will allow his greater experience of that to inform us. But I have to say to him: they have voted according to the way they see the facts. The UK Government’s position has been a shambles from the start. Fifteen months in, we’re none the wiser as to what the UK Government’s position is. They have spent more time fighting with each other. We’ve no idea of—. The only thing we know is that they’re doing their level best to deprive this institution and the people of Wales of the powers they rightfully should have. Beyond that, we have no idea. They’re now planning for a no-deal Brexit—I can say that no planning at all has been done for a no-deal Brexit. They have absolutely no idea what they want to do, and it’s important that the UK Government decides what sort of Brexit it wants. The people of Britain rejected the kind of Brexit that he wants, so it’s up to the UK Government now to decide what kind of Brexit is best for Britain. We’ve outlined our position as the Welsh Government, and that is something that we think represents a sensible Brexit that represents the views that people expressed last year.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, it’s not for me, of course, and UKIP to defend the way the UK Conservative Government has embarked on this negotiation, but if he has read Mr Yanis Varoufakis’s account of his negotiations with the EU, he will see there what is playing out. The EU has no serious intention of entering into negotiations with Britain for the future, because their interests are to keep the remaining members of the EU together, and they want, therefore, to ensure that Brexit—so far as they can—is not a success. So, we can’t expect to get anything sensible out of the EU. In these circumstances, is it not incumbent upon all political parties in this country to support the broad aims of the British Government, which are to have the freest possible trade with the European Union and to protect the interests of citizens—both EU citizens in this country and also British citizens in the EU? This is plainly what the Government, in its shambolic way, is trying to do, but, nevertheless, the aims are ones that we should all support.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I support those principles, but let me take him back to the referendum last year. We were told by his party and his party leader that the EU would strike a deal quickly because the EU were afraid of the UK; it was untrue. We were told that German car manufacturers would put pressure on the EU to strike a deal; that was untrue. We were told by his own party leader that the UK could look more like Norway, but now we’re told it shouldn’t look like Norway at all. The fantasies that were peddled last year are now coming home to roost. The reality is that the EU is not afraid of the UK—why on earth should it be? He is right—the EU wants to keep the EU 27 together. Of course it does; that would have been blindingly obvious to most people last year, but not to his own party. Now, the principles he has expounded I agree with—who would not want to see the freest possible trading agreement? Who would not want to see the rights of citizens protected? The problem is that while we know what the EU’s position is, we have still no idea of what the UK’s position is and what kind of deal it wants. That’s the problem.

Neil Hamilton AC: We indeed know what the EU’s position is—they don’t want to do a deal, therefore the whole process is a waste of time. Of course, he’s quite wrong—we didn’t say in UKIP last year that the Germans would do a deal; we said it was in their economic interest to do so. And indeed, given that they have this year a €42 billion trade surplus with Britain, if they don’t support a free trade deal they will be cutting off their nose to spite their face, which they may well want to do in order to keep the fourth reich together. Nor, of course, could we in UKIP determine what anybody else in any other party would be doing in any country in the EU. All that we said last year was that it is in everybody’s rational self-interest that we do a deal to make trade as free as it possibly can be. But if they don’t want to do a deal, 85 per cent of the global economy is outside of the EU—that’s growing, and we should be concentrating on other parts of the world. Therefore, what we should be doing now is scaling down the Department for Exiting the European Union and transferring those officials to the Department for International Trade, and concentrating on getting on with the real business of making Brexit a success in the rest of the world.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well let me tell you what Liam Fox said to me when we had a meeting of all the Ministers in the Joint Ministerial Council. He said that all 53 free trade agreements that the EU had with other countries would automatically apply to the UK. Rubbish—it was rubbish. So, that gives an indication of my faith in the Department for International Trade. He cannot get away from the reality that his party, his leader, went on and on and on saying the EU will do a deal with us quickly. The German—[Interruption.] We heard it—the German car manufacturers will force the EU to do a deal. The German car manufacturers are more interested in the EU-27 than they are in the UK. He talks about preparing for the no-deal Brexit. What does that mean? It means border posts. Well, customs officers are not being recruited. Apparently, we’re told there will be some kind of a strange pre-notification procedure on the UK side of any border that wouldn’t apply in the channel ports, and apparently it would apply magically on the open border that would exist with the EU in the Republic of Ireland. It’s cloud-cuckoo-land—the whole thing is cloud-cuckoo-land. The most sensible way of dealing with Brexit is to make sure we have the best relationship we can with our biggest market. If he thinks there’s going to be a free trade deal with the United States, he can go and speak to be the Bombardier workers. The US will look after itself. It has a Government that was elected on the basis of America first. It’s not going to do the UK any favours, and it’s quite clear that that is not what it’s going to do. Free trade agreements with countries that have considerably lower standards of living than we do end up with jobs being exported. Ask the Americans and the North American free trade agreement—it is what happened. Jobs were exported to Mexico and many of the midwest towns lost their jobs as a result of it, and that’s what he’s advocating—that kind of free trade agreement. The reality is we need to have the closest possible trading relationship with one of the world’s biggest markets—bigger than America—that’s on our doorstep, which we have a land border with. If we can’t do a deal with them, we have no chance of doing a deal with anybody else.

&lt;p&gt;Homelessness&lt;/p&gt;

Leanne Wood AC: 3. How will the First Minister ensure the success of the Welsh Government's long-term strategy to combat homelessness? (OAQ51168)

Carwyn Jones AC: Our commitment to dealing with homelessness is found, of course, in the budget that we published last week.

Leanne Wood AC: I didn’t hear your answer there, First Minister, because of the mutterings to your rear. Would you mind answering again?

Carwyn Jones AC: I’ll repeat it. Our commitment to dealing with homelessness—

The First Minister will repeat the answer and his backbenchers will be slightly quieter.

Carwyn Jones AC: Our commitment to dealing with homelessness is found in the budget that was published last week.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, last week when I asked you, you revealed that your plan to address the homelessness crisis that we face in Wales was to wait for a Labour Government to come to power in Westminster. Now, I’m sure that will be of great comfort to the many rough sleepers in Wales ahead of the fast-approaching winter. If we had powers over Jobcentre Plus and administrative control over payments, something that Plaid Cymru has called for for many years, you would have the power to prevent sanctions and to prevent the administrative fiascos that leave people destitute. Now, preventing homelessness, as you know, saves money in other public services. It also saves lives, because the increase in recent drug-related deaths is linked to homelessness. It’s for those reasons that we prioritised the Supporting People budget as part of our recent budget negotiations. Now, given all of this, aside from the Supporting People budget that I’ve just mentioned, are you seriously saying that there is nothing else that you can do to stop this growing crisis in homelessness until there is another Labour Government elected in Westminster some time in the distant future? Is that the best that you can come up with for rough sleepers in this country?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we look forward to the day when there is a Labour Government in Westminster, but she asked me to list what we have done. Well, 11,000 people have been helped since April 2015; the recent homelessness statistics for the first quarter of 2017-18 show a steady rate of success in times of increasing demand; 63 per cent of all households threatened with homelessness have had their homelessness prevented in Wales because of legislation that we introduced—the legislation we know has been influential enough because England is now looking to copy us; we’ve clearly demonstrated our determination to drive down homelessness in the draft budget—the additional £10 million for each of the next two years will enable local authorities to intensify their efforts to achieve the best outcome for those at risk of homelessness; we’ve just announced an additional £2.6 million of funding for innovative projects to tackle rough sleeping and youth homelessness; we are committed to supporting the End Youth Homelessness campaign and we’re working with it to develop an action plan to tackle that problem; and, of course, we have another round of distinct approaches, which includes a housing pathway to help ex-service personnel, the national pathway for ex-offenders, the pathway to help young people avoid homelessness, and an accommodation framework for care leavers to ensure they get the help they need to find suitable accommodation. It doesn’t sound like torpor to me.

David Melding AC: First Minister, I’m sure you’ll join with me in commending the work of the Wallich. In a recent report launched in the Assembly last week, I’ve found that there has been an increase in rough sleepers in Cardiff and Swansea and that those sleeping on the streets are 70 times more likely to die from substance misuse and 11 times more likely to die as a result of alcohol. We’ve heard that the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 does place an emphasis on preventing homelessness. That is very, very important, but the most severe type of homelessness is that that affects rough sleepers, and what are we doing to help resolve those problems of those who are actually now living on the streets?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the Wallich I know very well. Oddly enough, their headquarters in Bridgend are on the street where I live—literally down the road. We’ve worked with them on a constituency basis over many years to help people who’ve been faced with homelessness. I refer the Member back to the point I made earlier on that we’ve allocated £2.6 million of the funding for innovative projects to tackle rough sleeping and youth homelessness. It’s important, I believe, to work with organisations that have experience on the ground and to allow them to develop the solutions that they believe are right, while providing, of course, funding from the Welsh Government.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, I went on the breakfast run with the Wallich the week before last, and it was very impressive to see the support and services they offer—hot food, hot drinks, clothing, advice about accommodation, GP appointments; there is a whole range of very important support measures and advice offered by the Wallich. We also heard first-hand from rough sleepers just what they thought the practical solutions were—for example, the consistent availability of showers at a particular time during the morning and somewhere to dry clothing, which isn’t generally available in Newport at the current time and they feel should be. So, I would very much agree with David Melding that the Wallich have such a strong track record of delivery and a deal of knowledge of the practical solutions that will help rough sleepers. So, I do believe that Welsh Government should be working ever more closely with the third sector and organisations like the Wallich.

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. There’s no need to replicate what’s already being done or to reinvent the wheel. We know there are organisations that have first-hand experience on the ground of helping people. The job of Government in those circumstances is to help those organisations, and that, of course, is what we’re going to do with the funding we’ve announced to enable projects to come forward that are innovative but, importantly, of course, can receive the funding.

&lt;p&gt;Medium-sized Enterprises&lt;/p&gt;

Hefin David AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policy to grow medium-sized enterprises in Wales? (OAQ51153)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. ‘Prosperity for All’ sets out a range of actions and priorities that will benefit small and medium-sized enterprises, and they include the development bank, enhanced Business Wales support and infrastructure investment.

Hefin David AC: Just last week, the Federation of Small Businesses published the report ‘Wales’ Missing Middle’, in which they stated that, ‘In the missing middle medium-sized firms, those employing between 50-250 people make up a slim 12 per cent of employment.’They went on to say that, of those that do exist, they often face choices to sell to larger multinational entities rather than to pursue sustainable domestic growth. What plans does the Welsh Government have to address this issue and to what extent will it feature in the forthcoming economic plan?

Carwyn Jones AC: The Member has addressed an issue there that is absolutely right. We have faced too many instances in the past where businesses that the Germans would describe as the Mittelstand businesses, the owners tended to sell rather than grow. It’s a problem we’ve had for years. We looked at one point at whether we could look to resurrect the Cardiff stock exchange to enable them to grow and then become listed. It wasn’t practical. That was something we looked at 10 or 11 years ago. What can we do in the meantime to help them? We’ve got the Business Wales service, of course, which helps SMEs including medium-sized businesses, and the development bank of Wales will be a core component part of the Welsh Government’s economic policy and delivery to build on the expertise of Finance Wales. That will help SMEs to access finance. And the economic action plan will, undoubtedly, look to support businesses of all sizes. I think it’s fair to say that, 20 years ago, the emphasis was entirely on attracting overseas investment and nothing else. That’s what the Welsh Development Agency did. That’s no longer the case. We know how important that broad and strong pyramid of SMEs is, and Mittelstand businesses, if I can call them that, because they are the base of the Welsh economy, and we want to make sure that our offer helps to strengthen them as well.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Last week, I asked for a statement on whether the Welsh Government had plans to review the terms and conditions on which grants in Wales were made to businesses, following the job losses at Newsquest and the threat to jobs at Essentra in Newport. Both companies have received grant aid from the Welsh Government. Since then, it has emerged that of the £320 million spent on business support since 2010, less than a quarter was classed as a repayable grant or a commercial loan. And, less than 2 per cent has been repaid. Does the First Minister agree that there is an urgent need to review his Government’s policy with regard to grant aid to businesses to ensure that their objectives are achieved and the maximum benefit to the taxpayer is obtained in the whole of Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: One hundred and fifty thousand jobs have either been created or preserved as a result of the money that Welsh Government has made available. We’re not going to apologise for that. The reality is that the move towards repayable finance was originally made in 2010—seven years ago. Now, circumstances have changed since then. We’ve found that businesses were not able to access finance. They didn’t see repayable finance as attractive to them. So, yes, we have provided more grants, but we have seen the results and we’ve seen many, many thousands of people who are in jobs today because of the support that their Government has provided for their families, in order for them to have an income for the future.

Adam Price AC: One of the key conclusions of the FSB report is that Welsh Government economic policy has relied too heavily on attracting foreign direct investment. That’s not just true of this Government; it’s true of Welsh economic policy going back 50 years to when Cledwyn Hughes produced ‘Wales: The Way Ahead’ in 1967. It hasn’t worked. At best, it’s been a short-term sticking plaster; at worst, it’s sold the Welsh people the fallacious myth that the salvation to our economic woes would come from outside. Will we at last see a sea change in the new economic strategy, so that we can concentrate not on selling Wales as a location for the world to produce, but invest in our own capacity to produce our own innovations, our own skills and our own enterprise?

Carwyn Jones AC: I don’t see the two as being in conflict. It is right to say that we have been very successful in attracting foreign direct investment and many, many thousands of people in Wales are employed by companies outside Wales. That is not something that we should apologise for—it’s a mark of our success. He is right to say that, certainly, the experience that I had at the start of the last decade was that economic policy was geared, because of the WDA, almost entirely towards attracting very large investments at the cost of not supporting SMEs. We can’t afford to do that anymore, because we want to make sure that SMEs are able to grow in the future. At that time, our universities didn’t work with SMEs; they didn’t see themselves as economic generators, they didn’t see themselves as having to produce start-up businesses based around their own research. That’s all changed. Our universities are very much on board now, and we have worked with organisations like the FSB. We’re interested in what the FSB have to say in terms of what we can do to support businesses in the future, but we have to understand that all countries—well, all open countries—rely on foreign direct investment. They create many thousands of jobs in Wales. It isn’t the be-all and end-all, we understand that. Getting a balance is absolutely crucial, and that’s exactly what the economic action plan will do.

&lt;p&gt;The Advanced Manufacturing Sector&lt;/p&gt;

Mike Hedges AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on the advanced manufacturing sector in Wales? (OAQ51139)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. The advanced manufacturing sector is vital to a growing and prosperous Welsh economy. I have a touch of the Theresa May lurgy this afternoon, I see. There’s nothing behind me that’ll fall off though, I trust. [Laughter.] The sector is typified by highly skilled, highly paid jobs and above average productivity, and we continue to support companies in the sector in Wales to sustain their current operations and exploit growth opportunities.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that response? I agree entirely that promoting advanced manufacturing is going to be incredibly important to the Welsh economy, and areas such as robotics and graphene can help grow the Welsh economy. Does the First Minister agree that there needs to be a further clarification of the definition of advanced manufacturing by the Welsh Government, to exclude things like 1970s technology for colour coating steel from being considered advanced manufacturing, despite the fact that both Bryngwyn and Tafarnaubach had closed previously?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, colour coating steel is advanced manufacturing. If you look at Shotton, for example, it’s highly technical. Photovoltaic cells are involved in the production there. It’s not an easy definition to make, but from our perspective, we know the sector is defined by a range of standard industrial classification codes published by the Office for National Statistics. Those codes were agreed by the private-sector-led industry panel, which was established to advise both Ministers and officials, and the treatment and coating of metals, including colouring, is an activity included in the range of SIC codes that defines our advanced materials and manufacturing sector. So, it’s a definition that is based on consultation with industry according to a set series of codes.

Russell George AC: First Minister, the Welsh Government are currently encouraging manufacturing businesses in Wales to explore opportunities to export to Iran. Now, when I met with a manufacturing business yesterday, they told me it’s impossible to get paid from Iranian banks because Iran remains locked out of the global financial system. Given that your Government is encouraging Welsh businesses to export to Iran, which I welcome, can you provide some advice to manufacturers as to how Welsh Government can support them in order for them to be paid from Iranian banks and businesses?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the role of ensuring support for exporters when they seek to export to markets where payment is not always available is done, of course, by Atradius across the road. That is their role—formerly Nederlandsche Credietverzekering Maatschappij, formerly, of course, the Export Credit Guarantee Department. So, in terms of indemnifying exporters, that is not something that we would look to do. But, of course, we are looking to see what opportunities exist in Iran. It’s been open as a market for the first time in many, many years, and potentially a very large market, both for exports and for imports. So, we’re very much aware of the situation there. We very much are working towards putting together a package of support for businesses who want to visit Iran, who want to look at the market in Iran, but it would stop short of indemnifying businesses, because that, of course, is a role for another organisation.

Adam Price AC: Is the First Minister aware that Wales is responsible for producing most industrial graphene in the world? We’ve been in the carbon business before in Wales, of course, but it is good to see that we are in the vanguard with this industrial revolution. Two companies from Ammanford are responsible, by the way. Would it be possible for us to meet with officials in the department for the economy so that we can make the most of this golden opportunity for the Welsh economy?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, of course. Perfectly right. We wish to work with manufacturers and producers, and when they produce something that is world leading, then of course we would love to meet with them.

&lt;p&gt;Availability of Housing&lt;/p&gt;

Jeremy Miles AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the availability of housing in Wales? (OAQ51172)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are making a significant investment in all housing tenures, which is reflected in our 20,000 affordable homes target. We’re providing additional support for social housing and financing to get small companies building again, as well as new schemes to make home ownership more accessible and support for innovation.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank him for that answer. Yesterday, I joined the Minister for skills at Hale Construction in Neath in my constituency to discuss modular housing. There’s a growing interest in off-site construction in meeting housing need in Wales. It brings sustainability benefits, with energy efficiency, and speed of construction. There’s also interest from overseas companies in particular in importing components for construction in the UK. If the sector were to be dominated by that, that would cover the cost of sustainability and, indeed, the cost of the opportunity to create jobs in Wales for this emerging sector. There are policy challenges for the growth of the sector, including planning, the supply chain, finance and support for SMEs, which make up the current majority of the sector in terms of manufacturing. Will the First Minister commit to reviewing and addressing the policy obstacles to the growth of the sector, which if we don’t build in Wales, others will?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I’m delighted that 35 schemes have applied for support from the first round of the innovative housing programme. They have been assessed by an independent panel, and we will be announcing the ones that we will be supporting before the end of this month.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, earlier this year I raised the work of Hafan Las, a local group in Pembrokeshire that promotes cohousing, in a question session. Proposals such as this will provide efficient and affordable housing for local people, with a third of the residents over 50 in order to bridge the gap between generations. In your response in May, you said that this was something that you and your officials would be interested in. Given your previous comments, could you give us an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting projects such as this in west Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Wel, rydym ni yn rhoi cyllid refeniw i Ganolfan Cydweithredol Cymru er mwyn rhoi cefnogaeth i grwpiau cydweithredol tai. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd yn cael ei wneud ar draws Cymru. Rydym ni’n moyn hybu ffyrdd gwahanol o adeiladau tai, gan gynnwys, wrth gwrs, ffyrdd gwahanol o adeiladu tai gan grwpiau cydweithredol.

Bethan Sayed AC: First Minister, yesterday, I was pleased to be able to go out and be a ‘The Big Issue’ vendor, alongside Cabinet Secretary Carl Sargeant, taking part in that process as a way of seeing how people who are, potentially, in between housing, who are struggling with many things in their lives, are using ‘The Big Issue’ to sell and not to beg. What I found was it was quite revealing as to how invisible I felt, quite frankly, to many people who were just going about their daily lives and didn’t really realise that selling ‘The Big Issue’ was part of a social enterprise and it was going to aid and help them to get out of the situation that they were in. So, I’m wondering if we could encourage, and you could encourage, people to actually buy ‘The Big Issue’ and if you could tell us how you are helping people in those situations into jobs, so that they feel empowered to live their everyday lives in a successful way.

Carwyn Jones AC: I’d be more than happy to work with ‘The Big Issue’ in order to promote it. I know, as a group, we do advertise and pay for that in ‘The Big Issue’, as I’m sure other groups do as well. I’d certainly be interested in helping a campaign to encourage people to buy ‘The Big Issue’. When it comes to the actual vendors, their circumstances tend to be very, very different, so, for them, what’s needed is a tailored package to help them. But the very fact, of course, that they are selling ‘The Big Issue’ rather than begging is a sign that they want to get onto the ladder of improving their lives and putting more money in their pockets so they can live more comfortably. It would be useful to work with ‘The Big Issue’ in order to understand what more could be done to help those people.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I invite the First Minister to perhaps expand a little bit on the answer he just gave to Paul there on the Pembrokeshire example? Because there has been support over a number of years now for the community land trust model within Wales, and there have been many very good, but relatively small-scale, examples, particularly in rural communities, but now within towns as well. But if you look at, for example, the Burlington community land trust model in Vermont—I believe a certain gentleman called Bernie Sanders had something to do with the establishment of it in 1983—it now has within that community land trust over 2,000 properties and protection of open spaces, as well, that go with it. It’s a not-for-profit model, it has ownership by local people and it’s providing affordable purchase homes, not just to rent, and they share the assets when they are released, but it dampens down the rise. Now, I just wonder whether, with local authorities, with the regional consortiums we have, with the city deals and so on, does he—? Would he venture to think that there is scope here for some creative thinking, in the large affordable housing plans that we have, on how community land trusts can actually fill some of that gap?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I do, and the advantage of a community land trust, of course, is that the land is owned communally or by a trust. The houses are leased from that trust, and so there is a limit as to how much those houses can be sold for. People can make a little money from houses that they sell, but the prices are kept low enough to be affordable—so, a hugely important model that we want to promote. How are we doing this? Well, for example, in the last Government we provided nearly £2 million of capital funding to support the development of three co-operative housing pilot projects in Cardiff, in Newport and in Carmarthen—87 new homes. We want to see more co-operative housing, including the CLT model, and we would very much welcome more proposals from local authorities and housing associations as to how they can be delivered.

&lt;p&gt;Economic Growth in Aberavon&lt;/p&gt;

David Rees AC: 7. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for securing economic growth in Aberavon? (OAQ51167)

Carwyn Jones AC: They’re set out in ‘Prosperity for All’, and the Cabinet Secretary will publish an economic action plan later this year that will support delivery of the strategy.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, but—. Many people know Port Talbot is associated with famous actors such as Richard Burton—and there are many others that I probably should name, but I haven’t got enough time for them all—but most people know it for its steelworks. Our local economy over the centuries has been driven by industry, is still being driven by industry, particularly with Tata, and the supply chain is dominant in that sector. Now, industry is at the heart of Port Talbot, so much so that even the land at Baglan industrial park has a covenant on it to say that it should be used only for industrial purposes—quite well, as it fits in with the enterprise zone in Port Talbot that’s just been identified by the Welsh Government. The skills base within Port Talbot is actually based upon industry, manufacturing and construction. Now, with all that strength evident in the town, how does the building of a new prison drive the economy forward? And, consequently, will the Welsh Government refrain from changing the covenant on this land that actually recognises industry as the local economic driver, and not the building of a prison?

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s not clear, if there’s a covenant on the land, who would lift it, or whether the Ministry of Justice would have to go to court to lift it. It’s not clear without looking at the documentation. Port Talbot is hugely important in terms of manufacturing; we know that. A year and a half ago, he will know, things were bleak as far as the steelworks were concerned. The great fear that I had at the time—I would drive past it and I’d think, ‘Will we see the heavy end here for much longer?’ It’s still there. There are plans for it to prosper in the future. Why? Because of the work and the money we put in as a Government. The reality is that we put money on the table, we worked hard with Tata, we convinced them about Port Talbot’s future, and the workforce responded. Because the workforce made sure that the losses that were being incurred at the plant were turned around very, very quickly into a situation, now, where the plant is profitable. That’s a tribute to the work that the workforce actually put in—not easy, and sacrifices, we know, such as the pension fund, had to be made. But, working with the workforce and working with Tata, we know that, with the joint venture that was announced, the promise that we’ve been given is that there’s no effect on Welsh jobs, no effect on Welsh sites. We’ve come a long way in a year and a half, and that’s the Welsh Government working hard for the people of Aberavon.

&lt;p&gt;A Third Crossing across the Menai Strait&lt;/p&gt;

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. Will the First Minister provide an update on plans for a third crossing across the Menai strait? (OAQ51176)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: We are still on time to complete the project in 2022. Discussions have taken place—they’ve been ongoing for years—with National Grid on what we should consider in order to ensure that the crossing is built.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that. I’m pleased that, in our pre-budget agreement, we secured funding to develop this project, which is needed not just because of the frustrations for people because of delays in crossing the bridge but in order to provide resilience for the crossing between Anglesey and the mainland. On 15 June last year, I made an appeal to ensure that the National Grid should make a financial contribution towards the bridge rather than wasting £200 million on a tunnel under the Menai strait. Now that the completion date, rather than the commencement date, is 2021-22, can we take that as a sign that the National Grid have agreed to make this contribution and that we are seeking a model to achieve that? Can I be given assurance the consultation on the proposal will be as broad and as full as possible with the constituents of Anglesey?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the answer is, in no uncertain terms, ‘not yet’. There is no kind of agreement as yet. I raised this with the grid about two to three years ago. At that time, we wanted to consider with them how we could develop a crossing for the Menai. At that point, they weren’t interested. Things have changed since then, but we’re not in a position where we can say, ‘There is an agreement’. By May of next year, of course, we will announce the route that we wish to take so that the bridge can be built. By then, of course—way before then, we hope—we’ll be in a position where we know what the grid’s position will be, and what kind of contribution they wish to make to the crossing.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house, Jane Hutt, to make the business statement.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have two changes to this week’s business. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure will shortly make a statement on consultations on concessionary bus travel, and the time allocated to Counsel General’s questions tomorrow has been reduced to 30 minutes. Business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement and announcement found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Could I seek two statements, please, leader of the house? One, first of all, from the Cabinet Secretary for health. As it’s world Mental Health Awareness Week, I think it would be appropriate for the Cabinet Secretary for health to provide a statement as to exactly how Government interacts with businesses and works to provide mental health solutions in the community, in particular talking therapies, which is a huge area of untapped potential here in Wales. Hopefully, the Cabinet Secretary can shed some light on the work that the Welsh Government is undertaking with partners to make sure these facilities are available, both in the workplace, where it’s been calibrated that a £3 billion loss to the Welsh economy, and £7 billion overall to the Welsh economic output, is a huge financial issue that needs to be addressed, and, with better provision of mental health services in Wales, we could make a huge leap forward in supporting people who face the challenge day in, day out, week in, week out.The second point I’d seek a statement on is from the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs around animal health legislation, and in particular the competence of the Assembly as to be able to legislate in this particular area. The First Minister gave some room for optimism that the Government might well progress to reviewing and firming up the legislation in this particular area, in particular the sanction that is available to the courts here in Wales where animal welfare issues do come before them. There was a question given back to my colleague Paul Davies in December last year that indicated that there did seem to be an area of greyness, shall I just say, in the advice the Cabinet Secretary received, which said that we weren’t in a position to be competent in this particular field. The evidence and the information we’ve had from the Assembly lawyers is that the competence resides fully with the Welsh Government and we can make progress in this area—so, if we could have a statement to clarify exactly what powers are available to the Welsh Government so that the words of the First Minister can be taken forward and we can have confidence that there will be progress on animal welfare issues here in Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for both those questions. Firstly, yes, it is World Mental Health Day today, and it is an opportunity for us to acknowledge not only that this is an issue for one in four of us, in terms of mental health needs and issues, but I would again take the opportunity of saying, from a Welsh Government perspective, supporting people with mental health is one of our top priorities. We do continue to spend more on mental health services than on any other part of the Welsh NHS, with funding increasing by £20 million to over £629 million this financial year. You mentioned talking therapies as a key point. It does include £3 million investment in psychological therapies for adults. It does provide us an opportunity, again, to focus on workplace health strategies, which, of course, are the key feature of today. So, I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for that question. On your second point, obviously, following up from questions to the First Minister, the Minister for environment and rural affairs is very aware and mindful of the issues that were raised earlier on this afternoon. The First Minister has agreed to write to you on those important issues that you raised in order to clarify competence as requested.

Mike Hedges AC: The leader of the house is well aware of my interest in invest-to-save. In fact, she’s probably been missing my questions over the last 18 months or so. I would like to ask for a Government statement on the success of innovate-to-save, and how successful innovations are being promoted across Welsh Government and throughout the Welsh public sector.

Jane Hutt AC: Yes, Mike Hedges, I do miss the many questions I had on invest-to-save, now progressing to the innovate-to-save fund, but I’m glad to have the opportunity to respond this afternoon. In fact, the innovate-to-save fund is currently supporting eight projects through the research and development phase of the initiative, and this stage is aimed to test and refine ideas so that we can assess the suitability of each project for financial support.

Bethan Sayed AC: I was wondering if I could have another update from the Cabinet Secretary for housing with regard to what’s happening with regard to the private sector in relation to aluminium composite material. I ask for an update on this because, since his previous update, I’ve been talking to residents again at Prospect Place in Cardiff, who are telling me that now people can’t get mortgages to sell on their flats, even on flats that don’t have ACM attached to them. And, when Bellway sell their final flat to the residents, who are going to start a residents’ limited company, they may potentially be liable for the costs for any changes that would need to be made as a result of the inquiry by the UK Government. I think this is something that we should be concerned about, because this may be quite a substantial sum of money for people to have to pay, so I was wondering if I could either have a statement or some clarity on what those in private sector housing will have to endure in the future.

Jane Hutt AC: The Member raises an important point and I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to respond either in writing or indeed in a statement to Members.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Leader of the house, may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for the environment on progress toward banning the release of sky lanterns from public land in Wales? Sky lanterns present a significant danger to animals and cause injuries and deaths. They can also cause fire, damage habitats, and destroy animal housing and their feed. Back in 2013, the Welsh Government wrote to councils encouraging them to ban the release of sky lanterns on their land, and Newport City Council is looking to become the eighteenth local authority in Wales to ban the release of sky lanterns from their land and to help promote alternatives. Can we have a statement on whether the Cabinet Secretary will bring in a Wales-wide ban on the release of sky lanterns from public land please?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for raising an issue that, indeed, as you say, has been brought before this Assembly and to the attention of the Welsh Government. It is encouraging to hear that Newport—to have that update on Newport’s response as a local authority; the eighteenth out of 22, so there are more to come. This is something that—the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, I know, will have heard this question and we can consider what more can be done in order to again make the important points that you’ve made in terms of the adverse impact of the release of sky lanterns. Of course, it may require another letter to authorities, as we did before.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I ask for a statement from the health Secretary in response to the figures that have been revealed that a quarter of all beds in community hospitals in north Wales now have dementia patients in them—almost half of the beds in Eryri, in Caernarfon, 14 in Holywell, and 18 in Llandudno? Delayed transfers of care have led to patients waiting, in some cases, for up to 145 days—almost five months—before they are released, for example, from Chirk hospital, 102 in Deeside hospital, 120 in Bryn Beryl, and 107 in Alltwen. Work by the community health council in north Wales has demonstrated that the situation has deteriorated over the past 12 months, and hasn’t improved. The Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board, of course, is in special measures and has been for two and a half years. Bearing that in mind, I need an explanation as to whether the Government now takes responsibility for this entirely unacceptable situation.A gaf i hefyd ofyn i'r Prif Weinidog fynegi ein diolch i Chris Coleman am bopeth y mae ef a'i dîm rheoli wedi ei gyflawni dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf?Byddwn i gyd, wrth gwrs, yn deall yn iawn os bydd yn dewis chwilio am her newydd, ond a allai'r Prif Weinidog bwysleisio wrtho mai barn y mwyafrif llethol o chwaraewyr Cymru, cefnogwyr Cymru a chenedl Cymru yw y dylai barhau yn rheolwr tîm Cymru a'n harwain trwy'r gemau rhagbrofol ar gyfer Ewro 2020?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. On your first important point about latest figures on the use of hospital beds in north Wales, this is a matter that I will draw to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. Just looking at the figures for delayed transfers of care, which, of course, can have an impact in terms of the use of those beds, we are in a good place generally in terms of delayed transfers of care, and the fact that we see improvements is very encouraging. We recognise that we’re also facing moving towards winter pressures, which have an increase as well, in terms of the frail and elderly, as well as mental ill health, and those issues that arise. In terms of delayed transfers of care relating to the August 2017 census period, it shows an increase by 10 to a total of 422, but the total is 7 per cent down on the same period last year, and it’s lower than any of the totals reported in the previous two years. Clearly, this is across the whole of Wales, and therefore we need to look at regional issues as well. But I do think we need to remember that some of the initiatives, like the intermediate care fund, which was very much something that came out of budget agreements and discussion, has had a huge impact on enabling appropriate transfers of care, and £60 million will be in the budget to help this again. On your second point, I think we would all want to join you, not just the First Minister, but all of us here together—the Cabinet Secretary saying ‘hear, hear’—in terms of Chris Coleman. His integrity, his commitment—I think we would all want to express this today, and our thanks from the whole of the Assembly, as well as the Welsh Government, and wish him well. We don’t want to lose him, but we wish him well.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Poverty, in its many manifestations, is insidious and complex and can be debilitating. I wonder whether we can have a statement on the emerging trend now around period poverty, which is one of the manifestations of this within our communities. It’s being picked up with schools now, who are increasingly aware that some of their young students are attending and are unable to provide for themselves sanitary products. There are some tremendous initiatives to tackle this, both grass-roots initiatives, and local authority led as well. Wings Cymru, a group of women within my constituency, led by Gemma Hartnoll, has put together fundraising and they’re now working within three schools within my constituency and are hoping to expand it to more schools. Rhondda Cynon Taf are currently consulting on whether or not there is a scheme that can be rolled out within their area, but this is now widespread. It’s no coincidence that food banks—not only the Trussell Trust, but local church and charity and community food banks—are now regularly stocking sanitary products as part of the packages that they offer to families. So, could we have a statement on how Welsh Government can support and encourage both grass-roots volunteer and local authority efforts to tackle period poverty?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for drawing attention to these all-important initiatives, and they are local initiatives in many respects, learning from each other. You mentioned Wings Cymru, which again is having an influence on neighbouring communities and authorities. This is something that we, not just as a Welsh Government, but working with our partners in the third sector, as well as local government and the health service, would want to look at, in terms of tackling what is iniquitous—that, in 2017, we are talking about period poverty. I’m very grateful that you’ve drawn the attention of the Assembly to this point today.

Darren Millar AC: Cabinet Secretary, can I ask for a statement from your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs on the review of pay arrangements and the job evaluation scheme at Natural Resources Wales? Obviously, this is an organisation that has been formed for over three years now, but as I understand it, the review of the salary scales and the job evaluation schemes of the legacy organisations—the Countryside Council for Wales, the Environment Agency and Forestry Commission Wales—is still yet to be completed, and as a result, there are some individuals who are not being rewarded in the way that they ought to for the jobs that they are doing. Indeed, as I understand from speaking to colleagues on the Welsh Conservative benches, there are some who’ve actually lost out to the tune of many thousands of pounds as a result of the ongoing work. Can we have an update from the Cabinet Secretary on when this work will be complete, so that people cannot be out of pocket, particularly in the run-up to the third Christmas after this organisation was established?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, you have drawn attention to what is principally an operational matter, but it is important that you have drawn attention to it today, Darren Millar, in terms of NRW.

Adam Price AC: Can we have a statement, in Government time, on the validity of the recent intervention by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in the debate on the Government’s White Paper on the Welsh language? The ombudsman has published his own response to the White Paper—the only one that appears on their website—making the case for shifting complaints functions from the commissioner to his office. Many strongly disagree with that suggestion, and I and others found ourselves in the strange position of arguing, last week, on social media, with the ombudsman on a policy issue.Would the business manager agree that it’s not the place of the ombudsman, who is supposed to be objective and outwith the democratic system, to take a stance on a policy issue such as this? Can I specifically refer the business manager to the joint memorandum between the public service ombudsman and the Welsh Language Commissioner? It states:‘The Welsh Language Commissioner and the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales agree not to review each other’s discharge of functions as they consider that they are bodies of equal status.’Despite that, the ombudsman, in his response, states that many of the complaints that have been submitted to the Welsh Language Commissioner, in his words, are without purpose. Given the gravity of this situation, because it raises an issue of trust in the objectivity of the ombudsman’s office, would the Government make inquiries into this issue as a matter of urgency and bring a statement to this Assembly?

Jane Hutt AC: I can certainly assure the Member that I will seek advice on this situation, and I will then be able to update the Assembly on the issues and what relevant action could be taken.

Simon Thomas AC: Could I ask for two Government statements—or a Government statement and, I think, a Government debate, actually? First of all to the statement. The leader of the house will be aware that today is an important day in our fellow Parliament in Catalunya, when they have a very important decision to respond to a referendum that was disrupted by the Spanish police with aggression and violence, and they now have to plot a way ahead. It’s been very worrying that the Spanish state has not sought to enter into dialogue, or any meaningful dialogue. It simply threatened and used constitutional law to stop the free expression of the will of the Catalunyan people. It’s been particularly regretful, I think, that the position of this Labour Government has been so supine in responding to that, given the history of international brigades from Aberdare to Albacete, as the book tells us. In the context, I think of just waiting for some crumbs from the Chancellor’s table. That’s what makes it even more distasteful. It seems to be done for some very short-term realpolitik rather than a long-term view of how we develop within the European commonality in terms of our regional identity, national identity and the expression of free will. A significant intervention this week has been that of the Elders, as they’re called—some six very senior international diplomats led by Kofi Annan—who have called for international arbitration and mediation in these circumstances. That’s been backed up by several European countries. Wales, with a strong connection to the Spanish peninsula, remains a country with its own Government and Parliament where the Parliament has said something about this but the Government has said nothing. Can I urge the leader of the house, even at this late stage, to make a public statement of support towards the need for international co-operation and mediation and for the Spanish state to enter into meaningful dialogue so that the situation in Catalunya can be resolved in line with the will of the people of Catalunya? The second issue I’d like to raise—and I think this is where a debate could come in—is the publication yesterday of two White Papers by the UK Government on customs and on trade. They’re full of rhetoric; there’s no actual proposals in them. It’s very difficult to know what they will mean for us, but I think a debate in Government time would allow us to explore how we have an input into what the customs and trade arrangements will be as we leave the European Union. To my mind, there’s very little to engage with. I’m particularly concerned that the customs paper talks about the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which is fine, but it doesn’t talk about the sea border that we have between Wales and the Republic of Ireland. So, if we’re going to see customs arrangements come into place, we need to understand what that means for our ports, Holyhead down to Fishguard in particular, and, of course, Pembroke Dock. There’s no detail there, but there is this—I was going to say ‘tantalising’ suggestion—it’s not very tantalising, but there’s a suggestion that we could have no deal, that we could suddenly find ourselves making customs arrangements. And yet we all know there’s no preparation, there’s no land set aside, there’s no buildings for this to happen: very practical things are not addressed in these papers, and yet we’re told that this could be a very real possibility. So, I think a debate would allow us to explore some of these issues, but I’m particularly keen, if possible, today, if the leader of the house could confirm: what input did the Welsh Government have to these two papers? In particular, the trade paper says that there will be input of devolved administrations—I think the use of the word ‘administrations’ rather than ‘Governments’ tells you what they think about us—but nevertheless, it says ‘input’. So what is that input? Can we understand what the ongoing process is for dialogue around these two papers, which I take it now form the backbone of what the UK Government will be doing, even though the flesh is very, very thin?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Simon Thomas. On your first point: a very important point in terms of the fact that we have over the past few weeks—in fact, I think, since the beginning of this autumn session; this has been an issue raised with me, I think, in that early week. Those were topical questions that we did respond to in the light of our role, relationship and powers in relation to the developing situation in Catalonia. And you’ll be aware, of course, of the First Minister’s very strong response on the day of that unacceptable violence and intervention. I think your point about what happens now is very appropriate in terms of the collaboration, the co-operation and the mediation that needs to take place, and it’s important that you have expressed that for us again today. On your second point: yes, I’m sure that it will be timely for us to consider us having a debate now because a great deal has happened. I understand we had no input into the two White Papers—as a Government—that were published. We have been very constructive and we have, of course, worked very closely together, and indeed with Plaid Cymru as well, in terms of having an influence to secure the best possible Brexit for Wales, and closely working with the Scottish Government to ensure that the withdrawal Bill doesn’t undermine the constitution and the devolution settlement. I think tomorrow there will be a Joint Ministerial Committee in London on Europe that the First Minister, and indeed the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, will be attending. So I think it is timely for us to consider how we can then debate and consider an update on progress and our input, and, indeed, scrutiny across the Chamber.

Neil McEvoy AC: I think my colleague across the Chamber there, Llyr, beat me to it with the congratulations for Chris Coleman and the Welsh team, but I also wanted to add the brilliant charity Gôl, that do amazing work. The fans go to orphanages and they put so many smiles on the faces of so many children, and they’re great ambassadors for Wales. So, I wondered if we could maybe have something in written form from the Government congratulating Gôl on the great work that they do in every campaign.The second statement I’m looking for is a statement on the code of conduct in relation to the First Minister. I wrote to the First Minister two weeks ago asking for him to refer himself for investigation under the code of conduct, under the ministerial code, and I’ve heard absolutely nothing: radio silence. The important point is: does a code of conduct in this Chamber apply to every single Member—yes or no? If it does, I’ve made allegations—. The First Minister should follow Alex Salmond as an example and refer himself for investigation under the ministerial code. So, I’d like a statement on that, please.

Jane Hutt AC: I would like to thank the Member for drawing attention to the good work of Gôl. I think the matter of the code of conduct is for him as well for others in this Chamber.

Thank you, leader of the house.

3. 3. Statement: Consultations on Concessionary Bus Travel

The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on consultations on concessionary bus travel. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make his statement—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 22 August, I wrote to Members about the outcome of the consultation exercise that ended on 31 May about the future of local bus services in Wales. As I explained in my letter, the consultation was part of the ongoing dialogue between the Welsh Government, local authorities, bus operators and, most importantly, passenger groups about how we can better design and deliver local bus services for the people of Wales.This consultation ended on 31 May, and the summary outcome report that I shared with Members in August has now been shared with stakeholders and has been published on the Welsh Government website. Not only am I grateful for the support from Members in this Chamber during the debate on 28 February, I am also grateful to the 81 organisations and individuals who responded to the consultation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Ken Skates AC: Whilst I am pleased that the headline results appear to overwhelmingly support my outline proposals for improving local bus services in the longer term, I am conscious that some bus operators continue to have reservations about the potential for the introduction of bus franchising in Wales. I have asked my officials to continue to work with local authorities and with bus operators in Wales to shape detailed proposals that I hope to consult on early next year. I’m keen to address these concerns and enable us to better meet our shared and mutual objectives, which I set out in the consultation document. The forthcoming workshops that are planned for this autumn, following the bus summit that took place in January, will provide an excellent opportunity to develop our thinking on these very important issues.To recap, our long-term aims for our local services are to increase the number of people of all ages using buses for their daily commute to work, for education, for access to health services and for leisure purposes; the availability of good-quality and accessible local bus services for passengers as part of an integrated Welsh public transport system comprising a mix of demand-responsive or scheduled local transport, together with longer distance express bus services that complement passenger rail services; the establishment of national and regional integrated ticketing products to better enable seamless multimodal transportation; to enable bus operators to contribute to the development and the delivery of the south-east Wales and north-east Wales metro public transport systems; a fair deal for passengers, staff, bus operators and the public sector; a financially viable, sustainable and transparent approach to the imposition of public service obligations, with an appropriate level of compensation to operators and stable public funding arrangements generally that provide value for money and complement the best characteristics of the commercial bus sector; and, finally, to contribute to safeguarding the well-being of future generations by tackling poor air-quality zones, whilst also supporting a sustainable and thriving economy.I consider that these objectives are consistent with the aims we are seeking to achieve as part of our national strategy published last month, ‘Prosperity for All’. Whilst the policy consultation document published on 8 March about the future planning and delivery of local bus services in Wales contained information about the mandatory concessionary fares scheme and its operation in Wales, no specific questions were asked at that time about the scheme and it future operation. Some respondents did, however, take the opportunity to tell us what their thoughts were about the scheme. One suggestion put forward by a major bus operator was that the Welsh Government should take direct control of concessionary travel administration and reimbursement. Additionally, 88 per cent of respondents expressing a preference agreed that the Welsh Government should have the power to set up regional and national ticketing schemes.These responses suggest that people want the Welsh Government to take a more active role in the planning and delivery of local bus services, and so, on that basis, I am today launching a public consultation about the management arrangements for administering mandatory concessionary fares. We need to explore whether responsibility for this scheme should remain with our local authorities or whether this all-Wales scheme should be administered centrally by the Welsh Government. But I am keen that we use this opportunity to ask some fundamental questions about what the scheme provides to pass holders in the future. An increasingly ageing and active population requires that careful consideration is given about how we maintain this important scheme into the future. Based on current forecasts, we can reasonably expect the number of people aged 60 and over eligible for free bus travel to increase to about 880,000 by 2021, rising to more than a million by 2030. So, we have challenges that need to be addressed to ensure that our commitment is sustainable for the future. But let me be absolutely clear: this Government’s commitment to maintaining free bus travel for older people, disabled people and some injured service veterans is unshakeable. The Welsh Government meets most of the cost of the all-Wales scheme—currently about £60 million annually—with about £10 million being met by local authorities. Additionally, the Welsh Government funds the cost of retaining and analysing concessionary pass data, which is held by a third party on behalf of all 22 local authorities. Information gathered on pass usage suggests that around two thirds of passes issued each year are being used, with the rest retained just in case they are required. There are currently more than 750,000 passes in circulation. During 2015-16, about 35,000 passes were issued to people meeting the eligibility criteria for the first time, with a further 25,000 or so passes being issued as replacements. About 10 per cent of passes in circulation have been issued to disabled people and disabled people with companions to improve access to our local bus network to help people live independently. But to ensure we are able to continue to support people to live independently for longer and well into the future, we have a responsibility to ensure that our scheme remains financially sustainable to meet the needs of a growing, ageing population.In addition to older and disabled people, the scheme also provides free bus travel to injured service veterans, and we remain committed to ensuring that our public services continue to meet the needs of our injured service veterans, to whom we owe a great debt of gratitude. On this basis, we are seeking views on how best access to free bus travel in Wales can be maintained into the future. In undertaking this consultation, I am also convinced that we should consider other groups that could benefit from lower cost bus travel as part of the transport contribution to our ‘Prosperity for All’ strategy. In February, I extended our younger persons discounted bus travel scheme for a further year, and today I am also pleased to begin a consultation about how our scheme for younger people can be developed and delivered in the future to encourage more young people to use buses to meet their daily travel needs. The consultation will encourage and consider views from interested individuals, from groups and from organisations across Wales, and will look at how best to facilitate bus use amongst young people. The younger persons discounted fare scheme consultation will last until 4 January 2018. Since April 2017, young people have made over 0.5 million trips using mytravelpass, the Welsh Government scheme providing young people with discounted bus travel in Wales. This illustrates the importance of this scheme to those users, but I wish to encourage even more young people to use buses by developing a new discounted bus travel scheme for younger people. I also hope that many young people whose only experience of bus travel is the daily trip to and from school will take advantage of an improved scheme to try the bus for other reasons and, having done so, they will see that today’s buses provide a really attractive offer. This scheme is currently based on a voluntary agreement between local bus companies and the Welsh Government, supported by local authorities. We need to give consideration to whether this scheme could be better delivered as part of a scheme delivered on the same terms as the older persons scheme—a mandatory scheme, rather than a voluntary one. We should also consider the needs of the many people who are volunteering in our communities. We should actively consider whether there are opportunities to expand the current schemes to better meet the needs of people in our society. I believe that free bus travel makes a valuable contribution to improving the health and well-being of older people in Wales, enabling more people to remain active for longer, and so promotes independent living. The consultation on the mandatory scheme will be open until 12 January and, based on the results, which I will, again, publish, we will consider how best we can maintain our free bus travel scheme into the future in a climate of an ageing population and increasing pressures on the resources available to us. I do think that today provides an excellent opportunity to consider both these schemes and how best we can deliver them into the future

Thank you very much. Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement today, in which you say that you are committed, of course, to the principles that have underpinned the free bus travel scheme? This has been a flagship policy, of course, by the Welsh Government, and your predecessor Mrs Hart was particularly wedded to the principle of universal eligibility. Therefore, isn’t it a case of ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’? I would be interested in the rationale for a proposed change, as you’ve listed today. I would be interested in hearing from the Cabinet Secretary what his department has done to improve the way in which the current scheme is run, and what cost savings can be made in terms of administrating the scheme. Has the department done any work to ensure that it is certain that everyone who has a pass is eligible for one? What is being done to learn from the best practice as well from the blue badge scheme, which undertakes an assessment of eligibility? As I understand it, 2019 will see a move towards electronic ticketing machines and that new passes will be issued then as well. Has the Cabinet Secretary considered whether this will be an opportunity to tighten up the scheme and use new technology to help with the administration, reduce the cost of admin and use potential fingerprint technology to prevent abuse of the scheme? With regard to the concessionary arrangements for younger people and the successor scheme to mytravelpass, I very much welcome the fact that the Welsh Government are following in my party’s footsteps in consulting on a new scheme to support younger people in using public transport. Our proposals have received overwhelming support. Young people tend to have the lowest wages and highest car insurance premiums, and travel costs are a significant barrier to accessing jobs, training and social opportunities. So, I therefore want younger people to benefit from the same travel concessions offered to Wales’s over-60s. It is clear that if younger people are introduced to public transport early, they stick with it and continue to use public transport in later life. So, can you provide any commitment today, Cabinet Secretary, that any future scheme that is extended to 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales will have the same level of fairness, if you like, with those that are over 60? It is also essential that this scheme is properly funded in order to be a success. I know the Government is very keen to talk about fully costed proposals. So, on that basis, can I ask: what funding will be attached to your proposed scheme, as it’s not clear from the draft budget? And finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, the mytravelpass scheme has been characterised as having a disappointing take-up. I notice from your consultation document published today that 15,000 younger people have applied for the mytravelpass scheme. Are you happy with that take-up, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, and how will you ensure that any successor scheme is marketed properly in a way that encourages high levels of take-up amongst younger people?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his questions? Details concerning some of those questions are contained in the documents, but I do appreciate that the Member won’t have had an opportunity as yet to be able to delve deeply into those consultation documents, so I hope I’ll be able to answer each of your queries here today.First of all, I’d like to deal with the last point that the Member raised, which I think is a very fair point, that the take-up of the mytravelpass was not as high as I would’ve wished, and I think not as high as anyone in this Chamber would’ve wished. For that reason, the Confederation of Passenger Transport have agreed to embark on a new marketing exercise to drive up the number of people that are applying for and securing the mytravelpass. Indeed, I think the numbers have now risen from 15,000 to well over 17,000. I’d wish to see those numbers increase still further.I’m going to return to the question of concessionary fares for young people in a moment, if I may, but I’ll move first of all to the benefits that are offered to older people. The system is not broken, but, as I outlined, we will see a significant increase in the number of people aged 60 or over as we approach the latter part of the next decade, and therefore we need to future-proof this important scheme today. Any changes that would be implemented would have to take account of the existing arrangements for people with passes. We would not, under any circumstances, be withdrawing them from those existing pass holders, but we do need to consult on the sustainability of the existing model. But, as I say, currently, it’s not broken, but we need to future-proof it. We need to future-proof it in light, of course, of the fact that there is still no end to austerity and there are pressures on budgets right across Government and on the basis of the increase in the state pension age that the UK Government is pursuing and also consultations that are taking place elsewhere in the UK on this very same issue.The Member asks a very important question about how we’ve learnt lessons, how we’ve improved monitoring, how we can improve delivery, and I think that’s very, very significant, because better checks on the use of the passes have led to, as the Member is aware, prosecutions taking place. That, in turn, is believed to have contributed to a reduction in the overall number of passenger journeys that took place annually from something in the region of 108 million not long ago to about 101 million last year. Clearly, better checks on use and reimbursements for concessionary fare schemes are leading to less abuse of the scheme, but we are constantly monitoring and carrying out spot checks to ensure that there is no abuse in the system.The Member also asks about changes that could be made to ensure that better monitoring is carried out in terms of the administration of the passes in the first place. This is a responsibility for local authorities, but, of course, one of the questions that I’m posing within this consultation is whether the Welsh Government should become a concessionary authority. That would require legislative change, but what it would enable us to do is potentially make savings but also monitor better who is getting the passes and who is using the passes, at what time of day and so forth. It would also enable us to deploy new technology consistently across Wales in the way that the travel pass is used. The Member identifies a number of new and emerging technologies that could see the way that we pay for or go about using free travel passes change considerably in the years to come, and if Transport for Wales were to be able to develop an integrated, multimodal ticketing system for transport in Wales, with Welsh Government operating as a concessionary authority, then I am confident that we could exploit all emerging technologies for the purpose of enhancing passenger experiences.I’m going to come on to the question about youth concessionary travel now—specifically about youth concessionary travel. I should just mention, though, that, as an alternative to Welsh Government becoming a concessionary authority, one proposal that should be considered as part of this consultation is the establishment of regional transport authorities that could, on a regional basis, manage this scheme. In terms of youth concessionary fares, I do welcome the Welsh Conservatives’ engagement in this debate. I think it’s very helpful and it certainly assisted in driving it up the news agenda, but I would advise the Welsh Conservatives to crunch the numbers more accurately in the future. The reason I say this is that £25 million has been earmarked for the scheme, a scheme that they propose would offer free bus travel and a third off rail for 350,000 people.I’m just going to quickly crunch the numbers on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives. At the moment, there are about 16,000 to 17,000 pass holders. They’ll take approximately 1.5 million journeys on buses by March next year, and, therefore, something in the region of 100 passenger journeys per pass holder. On that basis—and I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect far more young people to use a free pass than a discounted pass—we would expect the 350,000 young people to take something in the region of 35 million journeys annually. And, therefore, with an adult ticket price—let’s say we guess it, which is exactly what I think the Conservatives may have done—at £2, that would amount to something in the region of £70 million for reimbursement of bus journeys, and that’s before you reach the cost of reimbursing a third of the rail travel costs.So, I do look forward to receiving full details of how the Welsh Conservatives propose to provide that level of offer for just £25 million, but, as I say, I do welcome their engagement in this very, very significant debate. I also do agree with Russell George when he says that we do need to incentivise behavioural change in order to decarbonise the environment, in order to deal with congestion on our roads, and to ensure that we have a more physically active population. I do think that youth concessionary fare schemes have a crucial role in that regard.

Thank you. I did allow you to do an exceptionally long answer there—

Ken Skates AC: Apologies.

I have several people, and people are adding to the list as we go, so, I’m going to have to ask you to be a little bit more concise with your answers. Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement on the consultation on a mandatory concessionary fares scheme in Wales? Obviously, Plaid Cymru fully supports the concessionary fares policy, introduced by my former colleague and then Deputy First Minister of Wales and Minister for the Economy and Transport at the time, Ieuan Wyn Jones. Now, for these vulnerable groups—the elderly, the disabled and some injured service veterans—this concessionary travel scheme is vital in terms of tackling isolation and increasing social interaction, tackling loneliness and isolation, which is the topic of a review of the health committee that I chair at present. Certainly, any attempts to diminish or reduce the provision in this area will be opposed in the strongest possible terms by Plaid Cymru. Therefore, I hear what you say, but will you categorically state this afternoon that there will be no reduction in the current provision available for all people who currently qualify for the scheme? Further to that, will you also categorically rule out raising the threshold as to when older people qualify for the scheme in future? I would also support any moves to further extend the young persons’ discounted bus travel scheme. I’m aware of the time constraints, so I won’t go into that, but there are clear benefits, as already stated, that this scheme for young people’s travel brings.Could you clarify, finally, as to whether the Welsh Government is considering Transport for Wales as the national body that will administer the all-Wales bus scheme instead of the local authorities? Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates AC: The answer is: yes, that’s a possibility. With regard to the question that the Member asked concerning young people, I can say that the consultation not only asks question of whether we should extend the current system in terms of the level of discount offered, but also in terms of the age of those who might be eligible. It also includes questions about the eligibility for, perhaps, carers and apprentices. Also, it looks at the potential to extend the scheme to those who are in receipt currently, who are unemployed and in receipt of the Jobcentre Plus travel card scheme.Now, I’m keen to ensure that older people in Wales, right now, can rest assured knowing that there will be no reduction in the current provision. The consultation that we are commencing concerns future arrangements in light of those pressures that I indicated to Russell George. We have to make sure that this scheme is sustainable for the future—that it is affordable for the future—and that the local bus services are sustainable themselves for the future. That’s why I’m particularly keen to gather opinion and gather evidence, through these two consultations, ahead of producing a number of proposals next spring for how we can modernise and strengthen local public transport right across our communities.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I, first of all, welcome the statement? Can I highlight two things? The importance of dialogue regarding bus services—too often, bus services are being run by bus companies without enough dialogue with users and others. The second thing: the importance of bus-rail interchanges. I don’t think you can overestimate the popularity of concessionary travel. Support for it is overwhelming in my constituency. Allowing elderly and disabled people to get out, meet with others, or, as happens during the summer in Swansea, get down the Mumbles, has a huge effect on people’s health. In fact, this would probably be better off being counted as health expenditure because it is dealing with a horrible thing that affects very many elderly and disabled people: loneliness. And anything that attacks that really is a major health benefit.I’ve got two questions for you. You talk about administrating on an all-Wales basis. Why not? An awful lot of concessionary journeys actually go across boundaries: into Swansea and Cardiff in the south, and I would guess, though I don’t know north Wales very well, into a number of the resorts on the north Wales coast. Also, on the 16 to 19s, I think they would benefit greatly from the mytravelpass scheme, not just for education, and in schools and colleges, but also for leisure activities and, again, to get out and meet friends. I think that loneliness is not a scourge only of the elderly. You can be lonely stuck at home as a 17-year-old in front of your computer, where your only social interaction is via pixels. What is the drawback of running the mytravelpass scheme on exactly the same mandatory basis as the concessionary scheme?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mike Hedges for his questions? I’d agree that this initiative has been one of the greatest achievements of Welsh Government, and I’m in no doubt that it’s contributed to the better delivery of public services, because it’s eased pressure on many public services, including the NHS and the care system. The Member is absolutely right, as other Members were right, to highlight the value of this particular scheme in challenging loneliness and isolation, and this is something that doesn’t just affect—Mike Hedges is right—older people, and that’s why I’m very keen to seek views on how we can extend the scheme for young people. It’s a tragic fact—and I know a number of Members were present at the presentation when we learnt of this from the Mersey Dee Alliance—that in that part of Wales, and it reflects the rest of Wales as well, I’m afraid, 20 per cent of young people cannot access a job interview because they cannot afford public transport to get to the interview. That is appalling. That must change. We’re determined to change that and to make public travel a liberating experience that enables people to get into jobs closer to home, or if they do have to travel further from home, in a comfortable and reliable environments. So, I would welcome the engagement of all Members in this Chamber in both consultations, particularly on the question of how we can enhance the offer to young people and so many people who do such good for our country—volunteers, for example. Okay, I take on board that, by and large, you’re more likely to see people from higher socioeconomic groups than lower socioeconomic group volunteering, but it’s my view that if you are volunteering, we should give you something back. We should respect and recognise what you are giving to society, and so I very much welcome Members’ views on that particular question.As far as simply changing from a voluntary to a statutory scheme is concerned, that’s one of the questions—whether we should do that—but I do hope that Members take the opportunity whilst answering that question to look at the potential of extending and changing and improving the wider scheme, because, at the moment, whilst a third off an adult passenger ticket is attractive for many young people, for others it simply is not enough, and we need to do more to liberate young people from unemployment, from loneliness and from isolation, and to make sure that we see the sort of modal shift that I think the future generations legislation requires us to deliver.In terms of national administration, I would wholeheartedly agree with the Member that this is something that we should seriously look at. That’s why there is a specific section in the consultation concerning this very issue, but, as I say, it would require a legislative change, whereas the potential of establishing regional transport authorities is one that would not require legislative change. I’m happy to change the law if that is the view of the majority of people who will be participating in this consultation, because, essentially, what we need to do is make sure that the system is right for passengers.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the opportunity to ensure that we can deliver the important concessionary bus fare scheme, but I don’t welcome the suggestion from Plaid Cymru that we should keep the current system in aspic. I’m a discretionary bus pass holder, but it seems to me perfectly possible for 60-year-olds in work to not need a concessionary bus pass, whereas it seems completely wrong that children who are eligible for free school meals have to pay to get the bus to go to school. So, I’m very pleased about your commitment to drive up the numbers who are commuting to work and school, but in a place like Cardiff, it’s really, really difficult to get on the bus just when everybody’s wanting to get to school and work at the same time. I just wondered whether you’d consider limiting concessionary bus passes to, say, after 09:30 in areas where there’s more demand than there is provision.In light of your mention of the well-being of future generations Act and air pollution, which we need to tackle, I wondered if you would consider incentives to make it more attractive for people to use the bus when they’re commuting, for example, making all-day parking in city centres a lot more punitive so that people choose to do the right thing and, equally, looking at it in relation to—. Free hospital parking for those who have a car, but no free bus passes for those who need to travel to hospital seems to be a little bit out of kilter. I feel we need to rethink that, as we’re rewarding people for doing something that we’re trying to persuade people, for environmental health reasons, to not do. So, I welcome the consultation and look forward to seeing the outcome.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her contributions and her questions? I think she makes very many interesting points, and I’m looking forward to seeing those reflected in the response from the Member. I do think that it’s essential that we need to protect those who have the existing passes, but I also think it’s essential that we futureproof this particular provision in light of the challenges that I’ve now identified on a number of occasions.I think it’s also essential that we look at making bus services a greater enabling vehicle for those who currently face difficulties in connecting with goods, services, and, for leisure purposes, who struggle to connect with their friends and family. In doing that, we need to ensure that we are identifying those groups who are currently marginalised. The Member identified one particular group, the children of those who simply cannot afford to pay for public transport. Certainly, that’s something that we would wish to take an opinion on. But I also think we need to look at other areas of service provision that are currently not covered by the scheme, for example, other modes of transport, particularly in rural areas where you don’t have buses. So, for example, do we need to look at extending the scheme to include taxi services? I’m also particularly keen to ensure that we examine the role of the administration and the cost of administrating the passes. At the moment, although you may be eligible for a pass, you may not be using the pass, and so the question will be: should there be a contribution to administering the pass? It costs us about £3 per pass at the moment. It’s a question that I think is right to ask. I also think it’s right to ask whether there should be limits on usage in terms of time. At the moment, we know that about a quarter of journeys are taken in peak travel time, and, therefore, three quarters—the vast majority—of journeys are undertaken outside of those peak periods. The scheme has essentially maintained bus services outside of peak travel times. That’s been an important factor in ensuring that many bus companies have stayed afloat in what has been the very challenging environment in which they are operating. Local authorities, I think, if they wished, could examine the charging structure for car parks, and it’s my view that if we are to get modal shift and get people out of their cars and onto more public transport, we need to make sure that we’ve got sufficient interchanges. This is a question that Mike Hedges raised. I do think that the metro and the transport hubs that we can create through metro will deliver those opportunities for people to park their cars, get out of their cars and get onto local buses or onto rail solutions, and I think that has to be right for the environment. That’s good for individuals, who will become more physically active, and it’s also more productive for society because we’re going to have more contact with one another. We can’t live in a society where our contact is all virtual. It’s absolutely essential for our well-being that we connect with one another more regularly in person rather than just virtually.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. Of course, we in UKIP fully support the Welsh Government’s free transport policy. Indeed, this was one of only two Labour policies that seem to have stuck in the minds of the Welsh electorate in the many years that I’ve spent campaigning, the other being, of course, free prescriptions—a policy, incidentally, that UKIP does not support, because we believe it leads to huge abuse and waste. On the issues of bus passes, can I express a word of caution? Bus passes, free or not, are only of use if public transport is universally available. I urge the Cabinet Secretary to use the consultation process on bus transport to look at innovative ways of helping those in receipt of free bus passes to access public transport as and when necessary. Perhaps we should look at small transport units that could respond to pick-up requests from users’ homes. As has been pointed out in previous debates, all too often we see large, 50-plus-capacity buses running with just one or two passengers. And I note Jenny Rathbone’s excellent suggestion here that those with bus passes who can should use their passes outside peak times. You’ve obviously touched on that yourself. But, given that this Assembly is committed to an anti-polluting policy, surely large buses with large diesel engines, running almost empty, is completely contrary to meeting any reduction targets. Surely small, localised transport units, even capable of running on electricity, which pick up and transport as and when required, would be far superior and more cost-effective than the modes of transport now deployed. I urge the Cabinet Secretary to explore these alternatives.

Ken Skates AC: I thank David Rowlands for his contributions and for his questions. I am pleased that UKIP support the free bus passes for older people. I regret that they do not support free prescriptions for all. Removing free prescriptions, I believe, would constitute a tax on illness, but far be it for me to answer on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for health.In terms of the last point that was made by the Member, he may recall that back in January I launched a five-point business plan, and that was in response to the failure of a number of bus companies in Wales, including probably the most prominent, GHA coaches. Part of the five-point plan saw Business Wales assist local bus operators in identifying more sustainable business models, and part of that work, in turn, has identified the need to be more intelligent in the deployment of vehicles. It’s not just David Rowlands. Lee Waters has also raised with me on numerous occasions the need for bus operators to deploy smaller vehicles, where it is known that a route will only require a small vehicle. It’s not good for the environment, it’s not good for the sustainability of bus companies, to be operating vehicles that are expensive and will never reach capacity in terms of passengers on them. I wish to see that work continue by Business Wales, and I wish to see more local bus companies assisted by expert advisers.I think, in terms of the availability of services, the Member raises a very interesting point, that in the future we are going to see quite radical change in the way that the public are mobile. With the arrival of Uber and other operators, we will probably see an increasing number of operators offering a form of public transport that traditionally would have been delivered by small bus companies, but which could be delivered by connected vehicles, and so it’s entirely possible that we’ll see taxis operating more as small buses. That, then, presents a challenge to the existing bus operators, but it’s something that I’m keen for my officials to work through and to explore the future potential of. I do think that we need to look at how we can ensure that there are services available to all people who may be in receipt of these passes, and for that reason, I’ve incorporated into the consultation a question about whether we extend the companion pass to two people. It currently applies to just one person helping disabled people, but I think that we need to ask the question of whether there are two companions needed.

Thank you. I have a number of speakers left, so I’m going to just ask for a very short introduction to your one question, and then, that way, we will get all four of you in. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to focus on the issue of bus travel in rural areas. One thing that angers me more than anything as I travel around mid and west Wales is seeing public buses, travelling around, costing thousands upon thousands to the public purse, and time and time again I see virtually no passengers on board. The issue of ensuring that older people, particularly, can travel around our rural areas, is extremely important, but, my concern is that we are providing solutions that are appropriate for our urban areas in rural Wales, where a system that would be more flexible and would respond to individual requirements would be more relevant. It is odd: I agree with David Rowlands—on this issue alone, just so that we’re clear on that. But, I do think that we also have to look to the future and consider electric vehicles. I think there is a revolution about to strike, and this is an issue where we have to take it seriously. Of course we need buses to take students to college or school, for example, but this issue of having a flexible system where, for example, it won’t be too long until we see driverless electric vehicles—. In rural Wales, as in all other areas, these vehicles will need to read the roads. They can’t read the roads unless there is white paint on the side of every road. There are roads in some remote areas where that simply doesn’t exist. I think the Welsh Government will have to think seriously about how that can happen in rural Wales, so that we do move towards a system where we do use driverless electric vehicles in our rural areas. That’s what I’d like to hear from you today.

Are you coming to the question, please?

Eluned Morgan AC: I was wondering whether you would be willing to consider that. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Eluned Morgan for her question? I think she raises a really, really exciting area of study at the moment, and it’s one of the areas of work that the automotive technology park in Ebbw Vale will be examining, because I think there are experts now—indeed, there’s Paul Davies, within Industry Wales, who’s identified the need to ensure that connected autonomous vehicles are not just produced for urban use, but that there is also rural use applied to their manufacturing as well. For that reason, I’m keen to make sure that Wales is at the forefront of developing a rural autonomous programme, because it could be something that we could sell, roll out, protect intellectual rights for, and roll out right across the UK and, indeed, much of the western world and more rural parts of less developed parts of the world. So, I do think, as we horizon-scan the potential of electric vehicles, we also bear in mind that connected vehicles and autonomous vehicles will lead, potentially, to fewer people owning their own vehicles, but hiring, renting autonomous self-driving vehicles. That in turn could lead to fewer cars being parked up on driveways and on roadsides and more cars actually being used more of the time on our roads. It presents huge opportunities, big challenges, but it’s something that my department, my officials are currently looking at, very much through the lens of not just how we can solve problems and take advantage of opportunities for urban areas, but how we can model bespoke solutions to more rural areas as well.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I notice that, in Bristol, a youngster can travel within the inner zone all day long, as much as they want, on a bus, for a couple of quid. That’s real, affordable, accessible transport. I know that’s an inner-city area, but it’s only £1.50 more to go into the outer ring as well. Now, that’s the ideal situation. So, could I suggest, if you look at Bridgend, for example, as a hub, where people travel into Bridgend from the Valleys and out as far as Cardiff and out as far west as Swansea, that there is an ideal inner and outer ring? It should be affordable, within a couple of quid, for anybody who’s using it, and I love the idea of actually saying to youngsters, ‘You can have it free’, if we can afford to do that, because it’s not only getting them in the habit, but, if you’re working in a part-time, casual job, where, frankly, they’re paying you the minimum wage or below, they’re calling you in when they want, to ask them to pay a fiver to travel there and back is beyond the wit of men to actually make it affordable. So, there’s a perfect idea of a use of a hub, and we need zones that people can identify with in their travel-to-work areas.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his questions? A very important point he raises—it’s covered on page 12 of the consultation document, the question of whether a user contribution scheme should be introduced. Now, this is something that we’ve seen in Bristol and in other parts of the UK as well. Merseytravel operate a scheme that I believe charges young people £1.50 for a single ticket, but £2 ‘anywhere, anytime’ during the given day. This is incredibly important as we consider the cost of public travel for young people. So, the questions that are posed within the consultation concern the potential contribution scheme, and we ask whether the cost of any journey—and I would base it potentially not just on a zone, but ‘anytime, anywhere’, so that it could apply equally to rural areas as it does to urban areas. We’ve indicated perhaps 20p, 50p, £1 or £2—or consultees can actually respond with their own suggested amount. But I think it is something that we need to take very seriously and consider very carefully.

Darren Millar AC: You probed earlier on Russell George in respect of the Conservative costings in relation to the free transport for young people offer that we announced last week, and I can assure you that they are fully costed, and I’d be very happy to share those costings with you. In fact, those costings are based on the costings of the existing concessionary fares scheme and directly applying them to young people who would be eligible. I just want to ask two questions, if I may, very briefly. The first is in relation—[Interruption.] The first is in relation to the costs of the existing mytravelpass scheme. It strikes me that, for the number of individuals participating in that scheme, the figures for 2016-17 worked out at not far off £1,000 per individual who was participating. That seems absolutely extraordinary when you consider that you can buy an annual pass with most bus operators for less than £500, and that pays for all your journeys, not just giving you a third off. In addition, you did make a brief reference to rail travel in your statement. Of course, students can take advantage of student railcards at the moment, which are very often—. In fact, they’re currently on offer for £15, which would give them a third off their rail fares. It strikes me that students in particular are very often having to do long journeys, particularly to and from their places of higher education, in order to get back to their families. Will you look seriously at our proposals to extend—effectively, to make all young people in Wales eligible to access a young person’s railcard—within this offer that you are currently reviewing?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions? I think, first of all, in analysing the data that you have provided so far on your proposal, I should draw attention to the fact that you’re proposing to offer free travel—not discounted, free travel—to all young people, I think, up to the age of 24, and including—

Darren Millar AC: Sixteen to 24.

Ken Skates AC: Sixteen to 24. At the moment, the scheme—[Interruption.] Costed with a dodgy calculator from a joke shop, I think. The scheme currently provides approximately 1.5 million passenger journeys per year and costs £1 million, but that’s only for a third off. If you were to then calculate 35 million passenger journeys, you’re looking at a whole lot more, which makes it unaffordable within the current budget envelope that’s been applied to it. Nonetheless, as I said to Russell George, I do welcome your contribution to this important debate, and if the figures can—[Interruption.] And if the figures can stack up—

You asked the question; listen to the answer, please.

Ken Skates AC: And, if the figures do stack up, we are more than willing to assess the benefits of them. But, in terms of the wider question about how much we put in and how much we take out, the Member is absolutely right. For the scheme at the moment, it’s cost £1 million. There’s something in the region, at the moment, of about 17,500 pass holders; there have been 1.5 million passenger journeys. Compare that to more than £0.25 billion that we’ve put into bus services in the totality as a Government and with local government for 101 million passenger journeys per year. I’ve been very clear in the past, and I’m going to say it again today, I do not believe the taxpayer is getting out of bus services what we are putting into them, and therefore reform of public transport next year will be crucially important in getting value for money, in getting services that are more accountable to the needs of taxpayers and passengers, and in making sure that we drive up quality right across the board.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. Statement: The National Planned Care Programme

Item 4 on our agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on the national planned care programme, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Vaughan Gething, to make the statement.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to update Members on the national planned care programme. This was established in 2014, with the aim to reform and improve NHS planned care specialities. The programme uses the expertise of clinicians in Wales to identify and promote best practice. Unless we are able to achieve reform and improvement in practice then we will not continue to deliver high-quality and sustainable healthcare services. Our vision is of a modern healthcare service ensuring patients’ needs are addressed at the right time, in the right place, by the right clinician. The planned care programme is helping to take that forward with a small number of speciality implementation and transformational plans. Over the last two years, the programme has focused upon ophthalmology, orthopaedics, ear, nose and throat, and urology. These are specialities where there are either unacceptably long waits for treatment or elements of clinical risk to long waits, and a speciality plan for dermatology was introduced within the last few weeks. The national planned care programme is empowering healthcare professionals with opportunities to review their practice, replicate them and implement the very best possible standard. An early focus of the programme has involved working with clinical specialties to help them understand the demand for their services, their capacity, and to support them to develop plans to bring their services into balance. That means reform if we are to see progress. It’s meant acknowledging limitations on the current ways of working and committing to addressing variations in practice within and between organisations, and those variations in practice also lead to some variations in outcome. When we launched the programme, we wanted to build on good practice that is already taking place within our system. We have a range of positive examples to highlight. In Wales, for example, we now have orthoptists giving injections directly into the eye to treat conditions such as wet age-related macular degeneration and diabetic macular oedema, using a device that has been developed here in Wales by a consultant in Wales. In a number of health boards, people with hearing problems can now be examined by an audiologist without having to travel further than their own GP surgery, and that will now be extended to other health boards following a successful pilot. The redesigned prostate cancer pathway, which is now in place across Wales, involves a multi-parametric MRI scan before a transrectal ultrasound biopsy and that’s significantly reduced the number of biopsies carried out, which we know are painful and potentially dangerous to the patient. The planned care programme has published a small number of key impact changes and these direct health boards to actively manage follow-ups, which is the next area of priority over the rest of this year. Follow-up out-patient appointments account for a considerable amount of activity undertaken by the NHS. Traditionally, patients have routinely been given appointments rather than the appointment being based on their clinical need and with the most appropriate healthcare worker. Evidence has shown us that around 9 per cent of patients already do not attend their follow-up appointments and that, in itself, is an unacceptable waste of resources. So, we will focus upon reducing the number of follow-up appointments offered as is clinically appropriate and for the right healthcare professional. Some of the changes that I expect to see rolled out across Wales include the roll-out of more virtual clinics. The introduction of virtual reviews and patient reported outcome measures in Cardiff and Vale reduced the number of hip and knee appointments needed to be seen by a consultant by 70 per cent—that’s 70 per cent. Health boards need to redesign appointments so patients can receive all necessary treatment in one visit, also known as more ‘one-stop clinics’, and these are already being used extensively in urology and are receiving a positive response from patients. And the training of healthcare specialists to undertake appointments releasing consultant capacity—. In Wales, we are rationalising, for example, our ophthalmology services by increasing the number of appointments done in the community using optometrists and nurses, and that’s released capacity in busy consultant clinics—more capacity for people who really do need to be seen by a consultant. We are already receiving, from these changes, positive feedback from clinicians, operational staff, and patient representatives, who have been involved since the programme was established. So, the planned care programme is starting to deliver changes. So, some of the outcomes already achieved include the introduction of national follow-up guidelines for ENT services. That’s been endorsed by health boards. Evidence from Aneurin Bevan health board shows the potential to reduce unnecessary follow-ups by approximately 40 per cent across Wales, and other health boards are now implementing and following those guidelines. They are already having an impact as patients waiting for their first appointment across Wales have reduced from over 3,000 in March 2016 to 1,949 in March 2017. There have been 863 fewer referrals this year compared to the same period last year.More patients are now being seen by an audiologist rather than an ENT consultant. That means around 72 patients per month are now being seen on a revised pathway direct to an audiology service. That means, across Wales, patients will be seen quicker as they are not waiting to see a consultant in a clinic but will be seen and assessed in appropriate community settings.Our national clinical musculoskeletal assessment treatment—that’s CMAT for short—principles document has been agreed, based upon best-practice models currently in place in well-established services. Starting last month, that’s now being rolled out across Wales. That should ensure that patients with musculoskeletal problems have access to a wide range of community-based treatment opportunities in addition to secondary care services. That should ensure that patients are seen by the right healthcare professional as appropriate. It should also reduce demand on our orthopaedic services.Health boards in Wales have seen a reduction in the number of urgent suspected cancer patients being referred into secondary care since the asymptomatic non-visible haematuria guidelines were adopted.In ophthalmology, the number of GPs referring patients to secondary care since the programme started has reduced from 17,775 in September 2015 down to 14,268 in March this year. So, as a result, more patients are being seen in the community by optometrists.It is still the case that some people still wait too long for treatment. Health boards have action plans in place to reduce long waits and, last month, the Welsh Government invested an additional £50 million to help the NHS further improve waiting times. We are seeing improvements in planned care services. However, these are not happening quickly enough. There needs to be a greater pace and consistency amongst all health boards in delivering improvement. It’s why I really do expect good practice to become standard, consistent practice across Wales. I expect health boards to adopt or justify. The planned care programme will therefore become an integral part of the integrated medium term plan process. Health boards that do not plan to deliver the planned care action plans will not have approved plans.I’ve said this is a clinician-led programme, so I want to finish by thanking Peter Lewis, the consultant vascular surgeon who is leading the planned care programme. This is not a straightforward process. It involves people in different specialities coming together to agree, and that isn’t always an easy process, and it involves service planners and leaders, so every chief operating officer takes part within the conversation. But the straightforward challenge now is how our national health service delivers against this clinically led improvement programme that Peter Lewis has helped us to create.There is a really significant prize for staff and the wider public in reducing waiting times, reducing variation, whilst improving efficiency and outcomes for patients. So, I look forward to seeing action this year and the next in every health board across Wales.

Angela Burns AC: I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today. In your statement, Cabinet Secretary, you highlight some welcome examples of good practice. What I’d like to know, though, is when could we see the results of all the pilots that were run—good, bad or indifferent—such as the health literacy questionnaire that was run by Cwm Taf, or the patient activation measures that were run in Cardiff and Vale, because I think we can learn lessons from all the pilots. Is there anywhere we can go to have a look at them so that we can evaluate each and every one of them?Could you also confirm that you are reviewing best-practice examples not just within Wales but whether you’re looking at other countries, either other home nations or within Europe? What are you using to benchmark these best practices so that something we think is good really is absolutely the best it can possibly be? How are you monitoring against developments in good practice elsewhere?My third question, Cabinet Secretary, is: I’m a little bit concerned by your comment about the 9 per cent of people who do not turn up for follow-up appointments. That is obviously totally unacceptable, and I agree with you on that, but you mention that your way of dealing with it will be to stop offering so many follow-up appointments. Could you please clarify whether you already know the type of person who’s likely to be in that nine per cent? Have they not been turning up because actually we’ve just been far too extravagant and offered them follow-up appointments when it wasn’t clinically necessary, or are they just people who’ve not turned up because they feel better and so they can’t be bothered? Because what I wouldn’t like to see is by refusing or by deciding to offer fewer appointments, we’re throwing out the baby with the bathwater and the people who do need follow-up appointments are not given those. Virtual clinics: really welcomed step forward. I think that’s a great idea, but could you please tell us what you’re doing to ensure that poor broadband or poor IT knowledge does not stop those who need to use them or could use them from using and being part of a virtual clinic? And finally, Cabinet Secretary, one co-designing planned care event was held in 2015, and there were two planned for 2016, but search as I may, I cannot find the information that says whether or not those events went ahead. Could you please tell me if they did go ahead, and is this an ongoing programme? Are there more of these co-designing planned care events in the pipeline? Is this what forms Peter Lewis’s thinking on delivering the model that we have here before us? Because I think it’s very important to be able to invest all of our stakeholders with real authority and real ability to take part in delivering truly integrated services. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for that series of questions, which I’ll be happy to respond to. On your first point about all the pilots and evaluation and whether all the evaluations are available: I couldn’t honestly tell you to hand, on each one of the list that you’ve set off, whether it is and isn’t available. What might be helpful, though, is if you write to me with the list of the particular areas that you’re interested in where you’re not sure if there’s been an evaluation of a pilot, I can then respond to you and then make sure that other Members are copied in as a result.On best practice, it’s interesting; I’ve had a number of interesting meetings with Peter Lewis talking about work from the start of the programme to carrying through, and one of the phrases he uses—I think it’s very useful—is about adopting a ‘best-in-class standard’, so understanding what is the best in class, having evidence to get there and then saying, ‘This is what we now need to do’. And in doing that, there is evidence from within Wales, but across the UK system as well, of course. And what’s interesting, partly, is that actually our surgeons, for example, but also clinicians at every level, are interested in what happens internationally as well. So we have that evidence that is being brought to us and is available. What I don’t want to do is to get stuck in looking for evermore at this before we decide actually, ‘This is what we need to do in the here and now, and here’s how we need to plan our service.’ That’s understanding both the demand coming in and how that’s managed, as well as then deciding when we need different parts of our system to see them: how do we do that? Because otherwise, we’ll never plan for a service; we’ll always be thinking about the next step and the next change in demand and then how actually we have our activity to match it. Some of that, then, coming back to your next route of questions about the ‘did not attend’ rate and reducing follow-up appointments—we’re exactly in the space of making sure that we (a) want people to attend appropriate appointments and that (b) they will continue to be offered an appointment that’s clinically appropriate. The first point is that we already recognise that we drive unacceptable waste and variation out of our system in some parts of it by offering standard follow-up appointments that are not clinically appropriate. And it is also then about understanding, if somebody needs seeing, who do they need to be seen by. That’s where, in the ophthalmology field, for example, we already now are moving to a system where we’re managing more and more of those follow-up appointments in the community. So, if you go into a range of high street optometrists, they will be able to tell you about a range of services they now provide. Actually, when I spoke to optometrists during eye health week, they were genuinely excited about what they were doing. In fact, one optometrist described it to me as, ‘This is great; it’s wonderful. We’re now having people referred to us on an emergency basis, in one instance, by GPs; that didn’t happen before. But also we’re doing more and more of what happens in the aftercare. So, before, we used to be a giant refraction machine, and now we’re using our clinical skills that we’ve actually got, and it makes the job more interesting.’That’s the same in a range of other areas as well. Orthopaedics is another example of where we had a hugely inefficient system in some parts of our service, and there are real gains to be made in efficiency and value for the citizen, but also for the whole service as well. That does require changes in behaviour from a range of our clinicians who are deciding on whether to provide people with follow-up appointments. On virtual clinics, it’s a really good example of how people can receive care from a clinician, or, where it’s appropriate, from a consultant, potentially, who is fixed in one point and where people travel to a different one. For example, I saw this directly in Betsi Cadwaladr: I was in Ysbyty Gwynedd, and the consultants there were able to provide a clinic with very high-quality images from people who were many miles away, but for them it was an easier place to go to. There’s something here about understanding the quality of our broadband network and the work that my colleague Julie James is leading on—understanding how and where we have high-quality broadband available. That may mean a short distance of travel for people, but it will be more local to them to receive their care, and that goes into us having more care delivered closer to home.On co-design events, we have had two events within the last year as public large-scale events. But, it isn’t just the larger-scale events: the PREMs work—the patient-reported experience measures—and the PROMs work—the patient-reported outcome measures—really matter. They’re about us trying to understand on a regular basis what matters to patients in terms of experience and what matters to them in terms of outcomes, and how we then deliver against that. So, people are actively giving information that will be acted on in our system. We’re trying to do the right things. As I say, my frustration and my desire is that we do more of that more consistently and at greater pace.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We have a portrayal here of a situation that is under control. Of course, there are areas, be that geographic areas or areas of specialism, where great ground has been made and things are getting better. There are signs that things are getting better, but, certainly, for too many patients, especially in orthopaedics and ophthalmology, certainly in the Betsi Cadwaladr area, there is real cognitive dissonance here hearing a Cabinet Secretary saying that things are getting better when that does not reflect the reality on the ground. How can we have 100 plus week waits for urgent referrals in orthopaedics when a Cabinet Secretary claims that things are getting better, although not fast enough? How can we get people to accept that things are getting better—that we’re on a road to improvement—when we have in Ysbyty Gwynedd, for example, a situation where no elective surgery, it seems, took place in orthopaedics between December last year and April or May this year? This is a situation that is getting worse, not just in terms of perception but in terms of realities on the ground, for far too many patients, and I say that, as I referred to earlier, realising that there are areas where, of course, we are getting better. But, these are areas where we cannot brush the reality under the carpet.Let me ask a number of questions. Would the Cabinet Secretary support a full audit report of management of waiting lists, looking at how management of waiting lists plays into delays, how much of a factor poor management is, and whether the NHS will have systems in place that stop operations being cancelled because a consultant is on annual leave, for example, which is a predictable event?I’ll ask one of my usual questions on data: waiting time statistics don’t measure follow-up waiting times, which are particularly important, for example, in eye care, where poor follow-up care can miss complications that can lead to irreversible sight loss. Also, for orthopaedics, solid aftercare and a check on the progress of aftercare can have a real impact on the prognosis for patients who have undergone treatment.Will the Cabinet Secretary also accept that until fundamental workforce issues are resolved we will not be able to have the kind of sustainable NHS that can be confident in knowing that it is on top of the waiting time issue? We have highlighted many times in this Assembly the need to ensure that we have the right staff in the right places in order to meet the demands—the ever-increasing demands—that are placed on the NHS. Can we have an acceptance that at the heart of moving forwards to that sustainability that we all need has to be a much more ambitious and much more rigorous workforce plan that can give us confidence that gaps will be plugged in years to come, so that the increasing problems that we’re facing, for example in orthopaedics in places like north Wales, can be resolved?I’ve also one final question: ophthalmology and orthopaedics—areas where we seem to be facing some of the biggest problems—are areas where there is among the highest instance of private practice. Is this something that the Cabinet Secretary will look into to see if there is a means of ensuring that the NHS really does become a priority for those people who have been trained to treat patients in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions. I’ll start with: I openly want to challenge your assertion that there’s somehow an air of unreality in the statement that I’ve made. I think my job is to be balanced in what I say and do, and I make no apology for being both positive about what has happened, positive about the future, and at the same time frustrated that we haven’t done more. In my statement, I expressed very clearly that some people wait too long. That is why we have had a planned care programme and, several years after we introduced that, we still haven’t done enough, from my point of view. And part of the point of bringing a statement here is to be honest about the fact that the progress we have made doesn’t mean that the deal is done—far from it. I also recognise—not just in this place, but on a regular basis—that there are variations within health boards and there are variations across health boards about activity, and orthopaedics is a good example. The progress that’s been made in some health boards is not being reflected in others. You’re seeing in north Wales a challenge that is seen more generally about rising demand and about how capacity and demand do end up aligned with each other, but actually there is a bigger problem in north Wales and in other parts of our system. There has been a bigger ballooning in the waiting lists there than everywhere else. And that’s not me telling tales out of school, because the figures are there to view. And I don’t try to pretend that those figures don’t exist. For me, that is the increase in urgency that is required for lessons not to be learned and talked about, but to be delivered in practice. I do not want to keep on coming here and explaining why parts of our service are not making the progress that others are as well. There has to be proper demand, both from clinicians themselves—they should be frustrated about where they are and about the length of the list they have of the people that they see, and the leaders and managers in our services should be frustrated as well. And that’s why I was really clear, both in my statement, and you’ll see it again in the planning framework for the intermediate medium-term plans, that I expect to see the planned care programme delivered, and that isn’t going to be a negotiable part of what health boards want. If they want an approved plan, they have to plan to deliver it and then they have to be able to demonstrate that they are doing so as well. In north Wales, you’ll know that I am expecting imminently to see the plan that the health board have for improving their orthopaedic function. I expect that plan to be robust and I expect it to work, and if not, there will be a rather more difficult conversation. Now, that’s not me threatening an organisation, it’s just being honest about where we are. And that’s a straightforward conversation that I have had and that system leaders had with each other as well. So this is not a game; this is genuine and it is serious, and I think it really does affect the ability and the willingness of staff to work in those services as well: to know that there is a real understanding that improvement is required.In terms of how we manage our system to reflect what actually happens, that again is part of what we need to do better. So there’s something not just about the follow-up point, but how you actually make sure that consultants and people who are saying they will see people are available. It isn’t just an issue about consultants. That goes into one of your other points about how we actually deal with workforce issues and waiting times. We’ve spoken before about Health Education and Improvement Wales, which has finally come into being with the chair having started work, and I think that’s genuinely exciting. We have the shadow body starting, looking ahead to the formalisation and it coming into being on a statutory basis in April next year. That should help us improve our function in planning and understanding who we need, in what number, and across which particular areas of staff. Again, I make no apologies for repeating the message, particularly because we’ve had more public conversations about austerity and the reality of it: if austerity continues, it will drive public service against public service, and we see that in some of the calls made by some actors in the field outside here. Actually, whilst austerity continues, we have awful choices to make where there can be no winners. It is simply about how we make difficult choices between different parts of the public sector. So my message to the health service, in public and in private, is: there’s a responsibility to use your additional resource to make a real difference in the here and now and moving forward. And that comes alongside not just a demand for having more staff than ever before in our service, the continuing demands for more staff—and in every specialty area and every lobbying group, they almost always call for more staff—actually, what we have to understand is how many more staff we think we need and how much smarter can we be with the staff we already have, because if we only think about expanding our services and numbers being the only answer, we will miss a proper trick in what we are able to do. That’s why the message of prudent healthcare about doing only what you can do really matters. That’s why people seeing the appropriate healthcare professional really matters, because we can create more capacity for consultants if different healthcare professionals have different parts of their job that they can do as well. It’s why the physiotherapy work and the clinical musculoskeletal assessment and treatment service really does matter. It will be a better service often for the individual citizen, they’ll get seen more quickly, and if they do need to then go and see a consultant, the quality of referral will be better and we won’t be unnecessarily putting people into queues for an operation that they may not need as well. That has to be an essential part of what we do.Finally, I just want to deal with your point about follow up on RTT. I don’t want to avoid this, because I think it’s really important. I have acknowledged previously that there are some of our measures in RTT that don’t necessarily make sense, that don’t give us the assurance we’d want because they’re only measuring activity and time, and time at a certain point. And at that point, it may not be driving the right clinical behaviour. So, on eye care, for example, I accepted that our current measures probably don’t give us the fullest reflection and assurance. That’s why work is already ongoing with a pilot that is due to start this autumn in two health board areas—in ABM and in Betsi—looking at what we could do to have a new set of measures to drive more appropriate clinical behaviour. We’ll then have a better understanding of the risks we are carrying in our system, and a proper identification that does look at follow-ups where it’s clinically appropriate to do so. So, we’ll have a system that I think will make more sense, but it won’t be comparable with England. That isn’t about saying that I’m changing the goalposts to avoid a comparison with England—I’m doing it because I think and I’ve been persuaded by the clinical case that it’s the right thing to do for the staff and, much more importantly, it’s the right thing to do for our patients.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. No-one in the Chamber would disagree with the overarching principles of your plan, which include improving patient experience whilst keeping the costs of care to a reasonable level. And in this respect, the 1000 Lives improvement to help Welsh Government and NHS wales establish sustainable services and improved patient experience in planned care specialities is welcome. Indeed, the Wales Public Services 2025 programme hosted by Cardiff Business School has put the choices in Wales into sharper relief in its recent report, when it states that under certain assumptions, 56 per cent of the budget could go into the Welsh NHS by 2021 and the percentage might be even greater in subsequent years. So, therefore, we do have an issue here where we put more money in and we’re not achieving our targets, so I wonder if you could make a comment on that please, Cabinet Secretary. The term ‘patient experience’ covers a number of areas that include both patient outcomes and patient waiting times. As you stated in answers to my questions last January, we need to balance the reduction of waiting times with the quality of interventions and outcomes that patients receive in Wales. So, how do you, as Cabinet Secretary, plan to do this? I welcome the news in your statement concerning the redesign of the prostate cancer pathway across Wales, having heard from many constituents in my region about the difficulties of previous treatments that were around before the pathway. Similarly, the roll-out of one-stop clinics, mentioned in your statement, is also to be welcomed, and also the intention of the programme to develop patient reported experience measures—PREMs—and patient reported outcome measures—PROMs—to capture and analyse patient experience of services along elected pathways. However, I’d like to ask, Cabinet Secretary, about the extent to which community health councils will be involved in the capturing of patient experiences. If they’re not sufficiently involved, then we may run the risk of having two separate records of patient experiences, one in the PREMs and PROMs reports and the other via community health councils. Would it be far better if patient experiences recorded via each of these avenues were put together in order to gain the most lucid picture of patient experiences? I welcome a holistic approach to patient care and lifestyle modification, and I would ask: what up-to-date advice and research from other groups will be incorporated into the holistic approach and lifestyle modifications? Previous documents concerning the care programme mention that one of the aims is to reduce variation across Wales. For example, such an aim may result in reducing the number of follow-up appointments that are offered following surgery, as this may be an accepted practice in other UK health services. Whilst being broadly supportive of the overarching aim of ensuring that NHS Wales’s costs are kept at reasonable levels, I must emphasise, Cabinet Secretary, that every case is different. Sometimes, a variation in services and appointments to treat the same or similar conditions, maybe in different areas also, is absolutely necessary, so there needs to be room for sufficient flexibility within the programme.The evidence of 9 per cent of people not attending follow-up appointments mentioned in your statement is disturbing, but every case is different, and we must not seek to reduce follow-up appointments across the board if such a practice does not produce optimal results for the patient. The evidence that your statement cites from Aneurin Bevan university health board, which has the potential to reduce unnecessary appointments across Wales, is welcomed, provided that we can ensure that such appointments are genuinely unnecessary—that is to say that they are routine cases without complications or exceptions. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, could you ensure that health boards have clear guidance on what constitutes exceptional circumstances in a given case? And, moreover, when a case is deemed exceptional, please could you ensure that health boards have clear guidance concerning what further resourcing would be considered permissible or best practice?I note that your statement says that there has been a reduction in the number of non-urgent suspected cancer patients. However, I have mentioned in the past that, when someone is given a cancer diagnosis, and diagnosis is of the utmost urgency for them, we need to ensure that they have the best patient outcomes and that when a person is told that they possibly have cancer that we treat all of this as urgent, because to that person, the word ‘cancer’ means that something is going on that needs urgent treatment.Finally, I understand that the planned care programme currently focuses upon four surgical specialities: ophthalmology; ear, nose and throat; orthopaedics; and neurology. I have read in your statement since that there are more in the pipeline. So, without wishing to run before we can walk, I would like to ask whether there are any long-term plans for the programme to apply to other surgical specialities or other areas within NHS Wales and, if so, what methods would be used to evaluate the effectiveness of the programme upon the initial four surgical specialities. Thank you very much.

Vaughan Gething AC: In responding to the questions and the points made, I’ll start by repeating and then adding a little to some of the points that I made earlier about finances and the reality of services. You’re right: our current projections show that we’ll spend comfortably more than half of the Welsh Government budget on the health service in the medium-term future. That is because of the choice this Government is making on the one hand to prioritise the health service, to make sure that front-line services are funded and that we have a generally sustainable system. We’re not doing this simply on the basis of our long-standing political commitment to the service but because of the objective aims that we’ve taken both from Nuffield and then the Health Foundation about the gap that needs to be met to keep the service sustainable. That includes not just more money going in; it includes continuing efficiency gains being made year on year within our service. The risk in that also is staff. It requires a continuing element of wage restraint, otherwise the service is not affordable. And then we come back to both the pay cap and the UK Government decision and whether they are prepared to be serious about the pay cap. I notice they have recently confirmed they are going to put off putting evidence in for the pay review bodies. That means that our public service workers, who are expecting the review to take place, won’t know what the position is until much later in the year and any pay rise of any level is likely to be delayed as a result. That may produce a saving to the Treasury, but I think it puts more pressure on our hard-pressed staff. It goes back to the central choice about austerity. The financial lead for the Welsh Local Government Association, Anthony Hunt, this weekend made the point that Tory austerity pits public services against public services. If it doesn’t end, we’re going to have catastrophic results for communities up and down the country.On our challenge here within the service to reduce waiting times and to make sure there’s no trade-off in quality, I recognise what you say about how we try and measure and get an understanding of what the patient experience is. It isn’t just PREMs and PROMs versus the community health council movement. It’s about understanding where there’s a differing role for different parts of our system. I think PREMs and PROMs could and should be really useful in understanding people’s experience and proactively asking people what matters to them and then designing services around what patients tell us, but equally it’s about understanding that there’s more than one place to go and get this. So, it’s in the numbers that we have, but it’s also in the clinical audit work that takes place as well. There are rich areas for improvement there as well, and that benchmarks us across other parts of the UK system. In each of the implementation groups we have for major conditions, the third sector are always involved within that so you have an area of challenge from those groups that are acting, if you like, as the voice of the patient within those services as well. A good example of where a third sector group helps us to understand the patient voice is in the Macmillan survey we’ve just had, telling us about cancer services and the direct patient input. So, we understand from a variety of sources what patients are trying to tell us about the services they value and how they want to see them improved. And in trying to make those more consistent or complementary, we should not choke off different areas to understand what people tell us.Your points about follow-up I think I’ve broadly dealt with. I’m pleased you recognise that ENT appointments in Aneurin Bevan have reduced by 40 per cent. The challenge, as Angela Burns was asking, is how we make sure that follow-ups are clinically appropriate and we don’t drive unhelpful demand into our system that is of no value, either to the clinician or to the citizen. And I don’t think there’s a great level of reassurance to be asked to be told to come to a hospital site for a follow-up appointment with a consultant, if you’re then waiting for a period of time, you have to try and park somewhere, go along and take up a significant part of your day, and if you then have five minutes of time with a clinician who says, ‘Everything’s fine, thank you very much’, that isn’t a great use of that consultant’s time and it often isn’t a great use of the citizen’s time either. So, there’s much more efficiency that we could get by actually, in a clinically appropriate manner, changing the way that follow-ups happen and who people actually go to see.On your other points about other areas of the planned care programme, well, that comes down to the advice we’ll get about the right number of areas, but also the capacity of our system to make a real difference in these high-volume areas of activity. On cancer, there’s more work that we’re doing on how we refine our cancer pathway to understand how we get the right system to deliver the right results for our patients.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We obviously have to get citizens more involved in looking after themselves rather than clogging up our GP surgeries with sore throats, for example, when they could easily self-medicate.But I just wanted to speak about the visits that I had with you to Pearce and Bowler Opticians in Pentwyn, where Clare Pearce and Francesca Bowler have piloted a real-time imaging connection with the Health hospital to enable the consultant in the hospital to instantly see the patient’s eye, who may or may not have a macular disorder, which might need urgent treatment, or maybe not. That seems to be a fantastic innovation that enables more people not to have to go to hospital unless it’s absolutely necessary. We want people to be going to hospital because they’ve got a life-threatening condition that needs to be treated immediately. So, I think that was a fantastic example of innovation that we could be pushing forward on, I hope, in other parts of Wales.Tomorrow is World Obesity Day and I’m horrified to read that adult obesity is going to go up from 27 per cent to 34 per cent if we do nothing about it, and we clearly need to change the conversation with citizens if we are going to prevent the collapse of our health service, which is under pressure from increases in cancers and diabetes and other conditions that are related to obesity. I welcome the virtual review that’s gone on of hip and knee appointments, which has reduced massively the numbers of people who need to be seen by a consultant. When there was a flurry of activity around excessive waiting times for operations just before the end of recess, it was obvious to me that Cwm Taf had consistently not had a problem over several years, so I wondered how the Cabinet Secretary is ensuring that best practice, which appears to be present in Cwm Taf, is being rolled out across the rest of the health boards to ensure that we’re doing the right thing to ensure that people aren’t waiting longer than they need to, and that we’re eliminating unnecessary consultations from the system.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I think there were a couple of comments and a couple of questions and I’ll try and answer promptly, Deputy Presiding Officer. On common ailments, I think you’re right—it’s a fair point to make—we want people to go and see the appropriate person in our system, or that they self-medicate and care for themselves. It’s why the roll-out of our community pharmacy programme—the Choose Pharmacy programme for common ailments—is really important. And we’re making very good progress—we’re making more and more pharmacies available for that first point of contact without needing to take up GP time.On the point about PB Opticians in Pentwyn, I’m genuinely excited about the pilot that they’re taking part in with another larger multiple optician, Specsavers, in the middle of the city and also in your constituency. I’m interested in having a follow-up visit with them, as the model of their piloting is then used throughout a greater period of time. So, I hope to go back over the new year and to look again at, with months of practice, whether that is delivering the gain that we think it could do, both for the clinicians in either setting, but also, importantly, for the citizen as well. Assuming that works, I am then keen to see that rolled out across the rest of the country as well. So, it’s a really exciting pilot to be taking forward.On the point about obesity, you’ll know that Rebecca Evans is leading our national strategy, to draw together, because we recognise that our challenges about diet and exercise are real and significant challenges in almost every area of activity, and actually, encouraging people to maintain a healthy weight and more activity is a really important part of driving demand out of our system. If we can’t do that, we have very real challenges about having a more sustainable service, so I do look forward to us being able to take advantage of the ability to do that, and I’m optimistic about where we will be as a Government. The challenge is: can we persuade the public to do more things for themselves, because it’s in their interests to do so, and not simply about making life easier for the Government?

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 5. Statement: The Rapid Review of the Welsh in Education Strategic Plans 2017-2020

Item 5 on the agenda is a statement by the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language on the rapid review of the Welsh in education strategic plans for 2017 to 2020, and I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies, to make the statement.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Welsh in education strategic plans have established a sound basis for planning Welsh-medium education, but so much has changed since the Schools Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 came into statutory force. We now have to adapt and modernise the way in which we plan Welsh education to reflect the ambition set in ‘Cymraeg 2050’, recognising that education is a key catalyst for change. During the summer, I laid out the Government’s plan to reach 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. This will require ambition, support and leadership from local authorities, governors, headteachers and, of course, parents and students themselves. To reach our target of 40 per cent of learners receiving Welsh-medium education by 2050, all of us have to collaborate.I was disappointed with the level of ambition within the WESPs at the beginning of the year, and that’s why Aled Roberts was appointed to undertake a rapid review of the system and to engage with local authorities on their current plans. Deputy Presiding Officer, ‘rapid’ is a fair description of the whistle-stop tour of Wales undertaken by Aled Roberts. I am very grateful to him and to all 22 local authorities for their co-operation at such short notice, as well as other influential stakeholders for their commitment and input. It’s important for us all to note that many people across the country have collaborated very hard together in order to reach the aim where we all want to be.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Alun Davies AC: Aled’s report provides 18 recommendations for the future development of the WESPs. I will be accepting all of the recommendations. This process has given me an independent overview of what needs to change, and how we can implement those changes in the most inclusive way. Aled provided us with a review of each local authority’s WESP. In early August, I wrote to each local authority to share these comments. My officials have worked closely with local authorities during the past month in order to amend, support and challenge these plans. We are expecting to receive the revised WESPs during the coming weeks.Aled’s report also offers recommendations for developing the future planning of Welsh-medium education. These include reviewing the timetable of the WESPs to coincide with the Welsh Government’s capital schemes, specifically the twenty-first century schools programme, and capital investment should be targeted to ensure a correlation between pre-school and schools programmes. Secondly, a panel should be established, or a board, to discuss and evaluate the changes needed in terms of the legislation and regulations prior to their introduction to the Assembly. Thirdly, strengthening the strategic relationship between local authorities and Mudiad Meithrin in order to ensure growth at local authority level that will contribute towards the Welsh Government’s targets on the journey to 2050. Also, simplifying the process of linguistic categorisation for schools; and urgent planning and action in order to increase the number of teachers trained to teach through the medium of Welsh. Llywydd, one of the recommendations was to establish a board and I want to move ahead to ensure that representatives from all sectors of education are part of this board. I have said many times that the Welsh Government can’t do this in isolation, and everybody who has a role in educating our young people must be a part of this journey. Plans for capital investment for Welsh-medium schools will be central to the growth of Welsh-medium education. Aligning the information provided within the WESPs with local authority business cases for capital funding will ensure consistency. We have already ensured that the next band of capital investment takes into account the Welsh Government’s vision for 1 million Welsh speakers, and early drafts of the local authorities’ plans look promising. But let me be clear: I will not agree to any plan that does not show ambition. I will continue the dialogue with local authorities until we have plans that reflect the ambitions set out in ‘Cymraeg 2050’. It is important to note that the school population projections suggest that numbers will be fairly static over the next 10 to 20 years, and so these amended plans will need to consider innovative solutions to expand provision. This is not just about opening new schools. The Government, with the support and guidance of the board, will also be exploring options for the linguistic categorisation of schools in order to provide greater clarity regarding the level of Welsh-medium provision available within a given school. Another obvious challenge will be to ensure that we have sufficient numbers in the education workforce to achieve the expansion that we’re aiming for. The Cabinet Secretary for Education announced some weeks ago her intention to invest £4.2 million from the education budget to develop the workforce able to teach through the medium of Welsh. This will include extending the sabbatical scheme—£1.2 million—and extending the role of the education consortia with £2 million.  Therefore, although we have begun our journey to implement the changes necessary to grow Welsh-medium education, I am in no doubt that more needs to be done. We must legislate to strengthen and we must look in greater detail at the existing structures, the role of the consortia and how we develop a clear and effective way of identifying the demand for Welsh-medium education. Llywydd, in line with our commitment to respond to the ambitious challenges we face in the long term to achieve 1 million Welsh speakers, I, as Minister, will continue to work in partnership with local authorities and other key stakeholders to ensure that the Welsh in education strategic plans work for the whole of Wales. Thank you very much.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement and for advance copy of the statement, which I received this afternoon? Like him, I was very unimpressed to see the lack of ambition in some of the local education authority proposals and plans that were published. I was very pleased to welcome the rapid review that he announced earlier this year, which has now been completed by our former colleague in the Assembly Aled Roberts. We all know that we’re not going to achieve the ambitious target of securing 1 million Welsh speakers here in Wales without actually growing the number of young people and children in Welsh-medium education. So, absolutely, we need to drive that ambition up, and I’m looking forward to being able to see the new strategic education plans, which are coming forward from the local authorities in due course.The Minister made reference to the fact that he had had some correspondence with local authorities about those plans, and I wonder, Minister, whether you would publish for the record that correspondence, so that we can see exactly what you challenged those local authorities about, because I think, in the interest of transparency, so that we can all agree with him and perhaps support the suggestions that he was making, it would be good to see that on the public record. I also note, of course, that the Minister has made, quite rightly, a reference to the proposal to establish a board to see the improvements through and has suggested that that board will include representatives from all sectors of education. I was particularly pleased to hear him refer to the nursery education sector, the ‘cylch meithrin’. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I was at my local ‘cylch meithrin’ in Abergele, which was celebrating its fiftieth anniversary on Friday, and I can see just how valuable that is and what an asset that is to the local community. It’s the success, at that very early age, that then encourages parents to get those children moving on into primary education through the medium of Welsh and, indeed, gives them the confidence to allow those kids to go on into secondary education.One area that you haven’t talked much about, actually, in your statement, is the role of the further education sector, and I wonder if you could tell us to what extent they’re engaging with local authorities, because, obviously, one of the weaknesses that Aled Roberts did identify was the need to ensure that there was progression enabled, if you like, and that there was a significant growth in further education through the medium of Welsh. We know that it’s not where it should be at the moment, and we’ve got children and young people leaving their secondary education wanting to go on to further education through the medium of the Welsh language, and they simply can’t get it. Where it is available, it’s a sort of phony provision, because very often it simply means doing exams through translators rather than actually being able to do the whole gamut of their courses through the medium of Welsh.You’ve also made reference in your statement to the valuable role of youth work—Welsh language youth work—and I know that one of the things that we’ve been looking at in the Children, Young People and Education Committee is the provision of youth work across Wales, and one of the concerns that we flagged up in our recent report was the need to ensure that there is access to Welsh-medium youth work provision. Given that faith communities across Wales are the single largest provider of youth work in the country, can you tell me what activity is going on in terms of engagement with your Government? What sort of levels of engagement do you expect the local education authorities to have with faith communities, given that they’re such significant providers? And where there may be a need to support some of those faith communities to introduce more Welsh into their provision, is that something that the Welsh Government would be interested in doing?I note, also, that you made reference to the anticipated population projections in Wales for school populations, and that the Welsh Government expects it to be fairly static over the next 10 to 20 years. We know that local development plans are rolling forward across the country, many of them with significant housing growth. In north Wales, I think if you tot up the individual local development plans, it’s around 100,000 new homes that are planned over the course of those plans being implemented. That’s a huge—. Sorry, 100,000 in population terms, rather, that we’re going to expect to grow that population by, just in north Wales alone. I suspect that similar levels of growth are planned for elsewhere. Can you tell us whether you take into account that growth within your estimated population figures, and also advise on what you expect local authorities to do in terms of those section 106 moneys that might become available as a result of that growth, for investment in the capital infrastructure to support the growth of Welsh-medium provision in the communities that might be affected? I am concerned, frankly, that the existing Welsh language impact assessments, which local authorities are required to undertake with regard to developments over a certain size, are not always looking for opportunities through their section 106 agreements to extend Welsh-medium provision in their communities, and I think that that is something that perhaps there’s been a bit of a blind spot to, and perhaps you can tell us whether this is something that is emerging as a theme from some of the draft WESPs that have been presented to you.Finally, just on the subject of the timetable for any legislation that might emerge, obviously, once the board is established, I presume that you will task it with exploring how the legislation can be best framed and to bring proposals forward to you. But, clearly, we need to make some rapid progress in this Assembly in terms of trying to set the path going forward so that we can achieve the ambition that’s in ‘Cymraeg 2050’, and I for one would like to see a very clear timetable for that board to work to, so that we can hold you to account as a Government Minister for delivery against that timetable. I wonder whether you’ve any idea at the moment in terms of an indication as to when you expect that board to be able to report back to you—I know it’s not been formed yet, but to report back to you in terms of the timetable for any legislation for the framework that might be required. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: I’m grateful to the Conservative spokesperson for the constructive way in which he has approached his remarks this afternoon. I think there is fair agreement on the basic analysis that we’ve made on all sides of the Chamber, and agreement that we all need to share the same ambition, and level of ambition, for the plans in each local authority area.Can I say to him—? I expect to be able to publish the agreed WESPs by the end of the year, and I will look then at how we publish all the sustaining and supporting information, and look at how we provide Members with all the information they require, both to hold us to account in terms of the decisions that we take, but also in understanding the way in which we’ve developed policy in this field, and to enable others to understand the process that we’ve been through over the last period. I’ve made a number of statements in this area, and I hope that I’ve been consistent in the approach that I’ve taken in that I’ve sought always to build bridges and I’ve sought always to reach agreement. I’ve sought always to encourage, support, enable, facilitate. I’ve sought always to have a conversation rather than simply send letters and demands and diktats from this place. I hope that this approach is going to bear fruit, and I hope that the approach of working together, across all parts of our country, is one that will receive broad support on all sides of the Chamber again today. In terms of establishing the board, as I said in my statement, I will look towards how quickly we can move forward to doing this. You’ve asked a number of questions on legislation. Clearly, I published a White Paper on the Welsh language in the summer. These proposals are not a part of that White Paper. However, I don’t have any formal proposals yet for primary legislation. What I want to be able to do is to look at the interplay between primary and secondary legislation. Some of these areas are the responsibility of the Cabinet Secretary for Education and we will need to take a considered view on how we approach having a holistic and comprehensive statutory framework that enables us to take these decisions, but also which enables us to have coherence on the statute book. So, I will look at the relationship between primary and secondary legislation and, when we’re in a position to take decisions on that, I will make a further statement to this Chamber. I hope the Member will forgive me for being a little reticent with timescales on this. I want to be able to consider the proposals that I’ve made in the White Paper first. I want to be able to ensure that we have coherence on that area of policy, and then to ensure that we have coherence in terms of our current set of WESPs, and then learn the lessons from both those two policy imperatives before coming together to provide further clarity in terms of how we will take forward any legislation in this field. But, certainly, I will be coming back to the Chamber to make further statements on all of those matters. In terms of moving forward, the issues over early years and nursery education are areas that I’ve been giving some great consideration to. We are aware of a number of examples—the Cabinet Secretary reminds me of a situation in her own constituency in Builth Wells where a meithrin has led to the growth of Welsh-medium education in that town. It’s an interesting example, I think, of what might be possible in other areas as well.I hope that we will be able to see a significant growth in the experience of the Welsh language for children at the earliest years. I say that in a very broad way, because there will be different and appropriate settings, delivering different levels of the language in different ways in different parts of the country. But what I’d hope we’d be able to do is to ensure that all our children, from the very youngest age, have experience of listening and hearing and learning to speak the Welsh language, whether they go on to a formal education in Welsh or in English. So, I hope that we’ll be able to give that some examination.In terms of the FE sector, the Cabinet Secretary for Education made a statement on this over the summer in terms of the task and finish group that Delyth Evans has chaired and led, and there will be further statements on how we’re going to be taking that forward in the coming weeks. I and the Cabinet Secretary have met with Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in order to consider the implications of Delyth Evans’s work and we will be taking forward those recommendations in due course.In terms of youth work, I recognise the point that’s been made and I think the use of the language outside of the classroom and the schoolyard is absolutely essential. I hope that faith groups will play their part in that and all groups in different communities will play a role in enabling people to socialise, particularly young people to socialise, through the medium of Welsh. In terms of local development plans, clearly, this is something that has been a matter of some debate locally in different parts of the country. I have met the Cabinet Secretary for the environment in order to discuss how we can take these matters forward. We are still considering our position on that. For me, I see no reason at all why local authorities cannot ensure that any schools built as part of 106 agreements in local development plans cannot ensure that the Welsh language is a part of that. Clearly, again, in different locations in different communities, we’ll have different results of that consideration, but it appears to me that there’s no reason at all, certainly no good reason, why the Welsh language should not be a material consideration in terms of those 106 agreements and that Welsh-medium schools should be considered on the same basis as English-medium schools. So, I hope that we’ll be able to take that forward.I hope I’ve covered most of the questions that you asked. I’m very grateful for the considered way in which the Conservative spokesperson has approached the statement.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I thank the Minister for his statement and also endorse the thanks on the record—and I’m sure that we have done in the past—to Aled Roberts for his work on these WESPs? You start your statement by saying that the WESPs have set a firm foundation for the planning of Welsh-medium education. I don’t want to disagree with you on the very first sentence, but, clearly, some people have questioned whether they have been robust enough, and the fact that we are where we are suggests to me that they haven’t. You only need to look at the critique from RhAG, for example, on some of the individual plans, to demonstrate that there is great cause for concern. But things improve from there on in, Minister, I have to say, and I do agree with you that we need to adapt and modernise the way we plan. You’re entirely right in saying that this isn’t just a role for Government. The local authorities, the boards of governors, headteachers, parents, children, and the wider community, of course, all have an important role to play. But the Government has to show leadership. The Government has to show strong leadership; it must be brave and unstinting in order to ensure that everyone else follows. Without that, then I do fear that we will be starting from a weak position. I have confidence that you will do that as Minister, but, clearly, we will be pressing you to ensure that that does happen. Now, I warmly welcome the fact that you have accepted the 18 recommendations in the Aled Roberts report. But, as you know, of course, accepting recommendations isn’t the test, but the way in which we all respond to those recommendations and take action as a result of them. Now, you say that you wouldn’t approve a single plan that doesn’t show ambition, and I couldn’t disagree with you on that. But my question there is: what is the yardstick that you will use to decide whether they are ambitious enough? What does ambition look like? Because ambition in one part of the country may be very different to ambition in another part of the country. That’s important, because, in order for us to hold you to account and for you to be accountable, and in the name of transparency, we have to understand what your definition of ambition is. I know that the recommendations don’t suggest specific targets for various parts of the country. The only reference to targets is looking at milestone targets that refer to ensuring opportunities for young people to use the Welsh language outwith the school gates. Now, I would like to hear how those might be created, but we need that clarity on what ambition looks like. And, if truth be told, we need to take a step back here, because I would like some clarity from you this afternoon on the more general target in terms of the number of Welsh speakers: has the target of ‘Cymraeg 2050’ for the percentage of seven-year-olds receiving Welsh-medium education replaced the target from the 2010 strategy? Because the 2010 strategy said that 30 per cent of seven-year-olds should be getting Welsh-medium education by 2020, but the ‘Cymraeg 2050’ strategy says that 30 per cent should be reached by 2031. So, I would like some clarity as to which target we are working towards.Reference has already been made to the early years, which are entirely crucial, because, if we lose our young people in those early years, then it’s possible, or more likely, that they will be lost to the language forever. The childcare offer is central to this, and, in the budgetary agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, we have ensured that there will be additional funding for Mudiad Meithrin, and I would look forward to discussing with you how we can ensure that that contributes to the ambition that we share here in terms of increasing the number of children who do receive Welsh-medium childcare and preschool education.You mentioned the need to simplify the categorisation process, and I would agree with that, because I have no confidence that the categorisation process at the moment is considered enough. There are some schools in the same category in the same county that are entirely different in terms of their linguistic make-up, and we do need to tackle that issue. But as one who has experience—and I would declare an interest as a governor in a primary school where there has been a battle fought—in the current climate and in the context of the ambition that the Government has set, we can’t put up with a situation where a school in one language category will be downgraded to a lower category in the context of reorganisation. We must guard against that. You refer to the twenty-first century schools programme, and that stands to reason. You say that you have already ensured that the next cycle of capital investment takes into account the Welsh Government’s target of a million Welsh speakers. Perhaps you could expand on that: how exactly do you see that happening, and what assurance is there that that will happen?Just to conclude, and to pick up on the point that you say that we must legislate to strengthen the situation, I understand the intention to change the legislative framework, and I understand that the panel, or the board, will weigh up what changes are necessary. Are you giving them an entirely blank page, or do you see it in the context of the current legislation only? We need clarity, I think, on legislation surrounding the WESPs, and categorisation will fall into that category, and so on. We need a little more meat on the bone in that regard. I know that you’ve also touched upon the timetable, and I understand that you want to hear the views of the board or the panel and so on before coming to any final decision, but Aled Roberts’s recommendation did mention that we should legislate by the next cycle of plans, or before that if possible. So, some confirmation that it is the intention to secure legislation before the next cycle of WESPs would be something I would welcome. Thanks.

Alun Davies AC: Llywydd, I’d like to start by thanking the Plaid Cymru spokesperson for his constructive response to the statement and to the way in which we are developing policy in this area. I did use the word ‘foundation’, of course, as a way of starting—it’s not the end of the process. You don’t finish a house with the foundation, but it’s important that we move forward and that’s what I’ve tried to do during the last few months. I understand the point that you make about the Government showing leadership, and I know that you’d understand ‘A fo ben bid bont’, because it is important that we do move forward and collaborate with people.I do admire councillors in terms of the work that they do and the way in which they deal with the different challenges that they face in different areas. I also recognise that councillors know better than us here in the bay, and that means that we have to have a relationship of mutual respect and collaboration. That’s what I’ve tried to do during the last year, and, through doing that, I hope that this Government is showing real leadership, which comes from sitting down and discussing issues, not arguing things in the papers. I hope that people appreciate that kind of leadership.In terms of the more interesting question, which no-one’s asked me for a while in this Chamber, namely how I define ambition, I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know that the ambition that I have for Blaenau Gwent would be very different to the ambition that you would have in Denbighshire. I do think that we need to recognise or acknowledge where the different linguistic characteristics exist in different parts of the country and start collaborating with parents and communities to ensure that we move in the same direction to ensure that there is more Welsh and more opportunities to receive Welsh-medium education and Welsh education—to have that through agreement. So, the ambition that I have is that we can move forward through agreement to expand Welsh-medium provision in all parts of the country.What’s not acceptable is that we don’t plan for growth anywhere—that’s not acceptable. So, we have to have growth, and the kind of growth that we want to see, and the period in which we want to see that growth, will depend on the linguistic nature, I think, of the local community—it’s an issue of local leadership as well. So, I have ambition on those two counts.We will be setting targets, because the pathway you’ve described is an important one. The target that we have is the target that I announced in the summer—not the previous targets. The current targets are the targets we’re working towards. I do think that I have to publish a more detailed pathway over the next few months that will show the yardstick, and the targets and objectives that we have for the journey that we face in the years to come. I hope, Llywydd, that I will be able to do that before the end of the year.Regarding the other issues that you’ve raised in your contribution, I do agree with you on the points that you’ve made about Mudiad Meithrin—a Welsh organisation that does vital work not just to increase the number of speakers of Welsh, but to ensure the status of Welsh in our communities. I admire the work that Mudiad Meithrin does right across the country, and I am very pleased that we’ve come to an agreement to ensure that we can continue to fund that and support the work of Mudiad Meithrin.Also, when it comes to the childcare plan, I will meet the Cabinet Secretary to discuss that over the next few weeks. I’m looking forward to seeing more detailed figures in terms of childcare availability through the medium of Welsh. I’m looking forward to seeing how we develop that situation. I take it that everywhere won’t be where we want to see it, but I haven’t seen the figures yet. When I do see the figures, I’ll be working with Carl Sargeant to ensure that we do see the kind of progress and increase that we want to make, which goes back to Darren Millar’s question about nursery schools. The Cabinet Secretary for Education has made statements on the capital programme, and she will be coming back to the Chamber to make another statement on that. What I can say this afternoon is that we are collaborating very closely on that and that we will have the kind of programme that will help us reach those targets. The Cabinet Secretary for Education will be making statements on that in due course. The final question was about legislation and the role of the board. When I ask people to do this kind of work, I ask them to follow their instincts and see where it leads. There will be a mixture, probably, between primary and secondary legislation and we’ll have to see where that leads us. But, if we’re talking about changing subordinate legislation, it’s possible that we will be able to do that before the next round of WESPs comes into force. I’d like to move as quickly as possible on that. If we change the law, of course, that will take more time. At present, we haven’t done that work and I’d like to let the board do that work and give them a blank page for them to do that. Once they come back with reports, then we’ll be in a position to make another statement to the Chamber and on how we see that timetable developing.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, very appropriately for the land of song, we’re all singing in harmony on this, if not entirely in unison. I do commend the Minister for the energy and leadership that he has shown on this groundbreaking policy. I do endorse the approach that he mentioned in his earlier response to Darren Millar about building bridges and bringing people along by persuasion, rather than compulsion. Aled Roberts, in his report, refers to this and how some local authorities are very weak in seeking to create any demand for Welsh-medium education. It is creating demand that is the very essence of the success of the policy, and I hope that this review will bear fruit in that respect—and I’m sure that the persuasive powers of the Minister are certainly up to the task of trying to bring along voluntarily any recalcitrant local authorities who have expressed too little enthusiasm for this project. He will certainly have my strong support in that respect. One part of the report that has not been mentioned in responses so far is paragraph 1.35, where Aled Roberts refers to the way in which Welsh is taught in schools. He says it’s ‘time for a robust discussion with Qualifications Wales with regard to changing the way the language is taught going forward.’Well, I know it’s a very, very long time indeed since I was in school and Welsh was taught in a very, very different way then from how it’s taught now. It was taught to me as a foreign language, and I’ve never actually fully recovered from it, in a way. But, I would like the Minister, perhaps, to expand a bit upon that aspect of the policy: in what way are we going to change the way in which the language is taught in order to help to achieve these objectives? It is, of course, obvious that the only way this policy is going to succeed is to have more and more early years children being brought up to speak Welsh as something that is natural and not something that is learned as a bit of a chore, as with many other foreign languages. And I would like to commend in this respect a report that Sian Gwenllian produced not so long ago, which we debated in this house, called ‘Reaching the Million’. There were some very interesting figures in there that show—and encouraging figures, for that matter—that of our three and four-year-old children, an increased proportion of the total have been taught in Welsh—from 18.8 per cent in 2001 to 23.3 per cent in 2011. Well, that’s six years ago; I hope that figure has now increased beyond that, and perhaps the Minister can tell us. Another interesting feature of that was how the number of children who are being taught through the medium of Welsh has increased where they live in households where neither parent speaks Welsh. The figures in that report were 9 per cent in 2001 and 14 per cent in 2011. This is clearly going to be the case for some time to come, and I appreciate what the Minister said in reply to Llyr Gruffydd a moment ago about how the ambition is different in different parts of Wales, and how Blaenau Gwent is different from Gwynedd or Denbighshire, but inevitably in places like Blaenau Gwent and areas that don’t have a very high proportion of Welsh speakers at the moment, we are going to find that children are going to be speaking Welsh but the parents will not be able to follow them. That is the great challenge, I think, that we will have in the next couple of decades. But in addition to increasing the demand for Welsh, of course, is the crucial question of increasing the supply of teachers who are able to meet that demand. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has announced this £4.2 million in order to help to deal with that, which is extremely welcome, but I wonder whether there needs to be more done in this respect to encourage teachers. I don’t know whether it is possible to introduce any financial incentives or whether indeed that is desirable, but if there is a way of adding to what has already been done, I think that is something that the Minister ought certainly to consider. I certainly approve of what has been said about Mudiad Meithrin and the importance of ‘cylchoedd meithrin’ to the achievement of the ambitious goals that we’ve set ourselves. It is absolutely vital that we have more examples such as the one that was quoted in Builth Wells and in areas, in particular, where the future growth of the language needs to take place. I fully agree with those who say that, first of all, we’ve got to consolidate where there is a tradition of speaking Welsh and it is the natural language of communication both in the home, in the work and in the community. But in areas where it’s been 100 years perhaps since there was any Welsh spoken or heard in the streets, then this is something that has to be advanced by the rising generation as people of my age start to fall off the perch and will be replaced by people who have a natural facility to help the Minister to achieve it. I will be 101 years old if I survive to 2050, but you never know—my mother’s mother lived to be 103, so there is a chance that I could still be here. Well, maybe not here, but certainly alive on the planet and adding my voice to the political debate. But I’d just like, on behalf of UKIP, to welcome this report, which is a further extension of the good work that the Minister has done, and that we’ve supported all the way through.

Alun Davies AC: I’m grateful to the UKIP spokesman. He started his remarks talking about the land of song. Well, there are Members in this Chamber—Presiding Officer, you may be one yourself—who have actually heard me singing. The one thing I think that unites Members on all sides of the Chamber is that they don’t want to hear it again. I wouldn’t seek to inflict that on anyone.I understand the points that have been made about increasing and stimulating demand for Welsh-medium education. I think all of us who have children who’ve been in or through the system recognise the benefits of that, and recognise the benefits of acquiring a language at an early age. Certainly, my seven-year-old son is now able to speak, write and use the Welsh language in a way that would have been unimaginable for me at that age. And as a consequence of that, it is something that he has now for the rest of his life, and I think that will be of great benefit for him, as it would be for all children of that age. I hope that as we move forward in this debate, we will be able to demonstrate both the—. I don’t like to use the words ‘advantage of bilingualism’, but certainly that bilingualism is something that has added to my life and is certainly I think something that adds to all our different lives, and enables us to not only appreciate the history and culture of our country but also the history and culture of other countries, other nations and other peoples as well. I hesitate as well before I try to define the little ambition that has come from some local authorities, but I will say this in answer to the Member’s question: the conversations that Aled has led and which my officials have continued with all local authorities of all political complexions in all parts of the country have been overwhelmingly positive. It is about how we move forward and not whether we move forward. I think it’s a tribute to local authority leaders—as I said, of all political complexions from all parts of the country—that they are looking at this agenda in a positive way at a time when they’re dealing with some very difficult financial pressures. So, rather than emphasise little ambition or little enthusiasm, I would like to emphasise the positive ambition and the positive enthusiasm we have seen from local authorities.The UKIP spokesperson asked me about categories, and I neglected to answer Llyr Gruffydd’s question on the same matter. The purpose of looking at categories is not to necessarily change or undermine the status of the language in schools as it exists today, but to understand what is actually happening in the classroom in different categories of schools, because we recognise that categories can be a perplexing and bewildering array of different balances of the language where they are used. I appreciate that quite a few parents might find them perplexing themselves. So, I want to understand what exactly is happening in all of those schools and whether there is a way in which we can move forward that moves away from that sort of sometimes overly complex structure. It is done without prejudice. It is done in a way to learn and to understand and to look at and learn from best practice. The purpose is not necessarily to undermine—it certainly isn’t to undermine the status of the language anywhere.What I want to emphasise in that is that I’m anxious that we need to look as well at the English-medium sector, and the points made about the teaching of Welsh are well made and points that I accept. The Cabinet Secretary for Education has already made a number of statements on this matter and will continue to do so as we look towards moving along the continuum and introducing the new curriculum, but let me say this: the Welsh language is something that belongs to everybody, no matter what the medium of education is in the school that they attend. It is important to me that children who attend English-medium schools are able to leave that school with a working knowledge, at least a conversational knowledge, of the Welsh language. We know that is not the case at the moment, and what we need to be able to do is to understand why that isn’t the case and to ensure that, through the new curriculum that is being introduced by the Cabinet Secretary, we’re able to change people’s experience of learning Welsh in schools.I know that time is moving on, Presiding Officer, but I have to say that the role of parents is essential. The role of the community is essential. School is always a part of the community, wherever that community may be located, and the role of the language of instruction in schools is important—it’s a reflection of that community—and I think that people right across the country are very, very positive about seeing more Welsh and allowing the language of instruction to enable parents and others to learn the language themselves. I hope that the national centre that was established two years ago for the teaching of Welsh will look at this and look at how we can help parents to have at least a working knowledge of the language at the different times that that’s needed during a child’s education. The issues about the supply of teachers and others are matters that have been already raised by the Plaid Cymru spokesperson this afternoon, and this is a matter that I recognise as being a significant challenge facing us. When we do publish our plans for delivering on the 2050 strategy and the work that we’ll be completing during the current Assembly, we will be setting out how we intend to meet those objectives and meet those targets.

Jeremy Miles AC: May I welcome the Minister’s statement and welcome the fact that he intends to accept all of Aled Roberts’s recommendations? You mentioned in your statement how important it is to identify demand, and you have just acknowledged, in your last answer, how important it is to generate demand and to encourage that demand where it currently doesn’t exist or it isn’t as high as it perhaps could be, and explaining the benefits and winning people over to the case of Welsh-medium education.One of the recommendations of the report is a more strategic relationship between local authorities and the ‘mudiadau meithrin’, as we’ve been discussing already, but in order to achieve the aims of the strategy we will surely need to do more than that to enhance demand at a broad enough level. So, you’re looking at a situation here where elected members and officers in local authorities are perhaps going to be challenged to meet the current demand. So, what would you like to see happening on the ground beyond the strategic relationship with ‘mudiadau meithrin’ in order to encourage this demand and to win the argument on the benefits of Welsh-medium education to a larger audience, perhaps, than we’re currently reaching?

Alun Davies AC: Llywydd, I agree with the point that the Member has made, and the Government has historically been quite shy about these issues. I’m less shy. I have seen the advantages of Welsh-medium education in my own family and I see the advantages of having Welsh-medium education for children across the country, which allows them to be part of the wealth of cultural inheritance that we have. I think that that is vital.In the next few months I will be considering how we can stimulate that demand, as you’ve described, and also ensure that we can persuade people that Welsh-medium education is a real option for their children, wherever they live and whatever the language of the household is, and to allow people to have access to Welsh-medium education. Very often, having access to that Welsh-medium education is one of the main barriers in terms of entering the Welsh-medium system. So, it’s making it a real option for people in every part of the country, ensuring that people can have schools close to their homes, ensuring, then, that people can feel at home moving to the Welsh-medium option, if Welsh is not the language of the household, and then supporting families who make that choice, and moving forward in a way that several Members have described this afternoon, through having more opportunities for very, very young children to learn Welsh and get to grips with the language.

Thank you, Minister.

6. 6. Statement: Integration and Partnership Working in Health and Social Care

That brings us to our next item, which is a statement by the Minister for Social Services and Public Health on integration and partnership working in health and social care. I call on the Minister for health to make her statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. It has now been over a year since the commencement of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which is now transforming the way that care and support services are delivered across Wales. I have been pleased to be able to see for myself how this legislation is resulting in improved outcomes for people within our society with the most need. It is also helping to ensure services are sustainable, despite the ongoing austerity imposed by the UK Government. This statement updates Assembly Members on progress in providing the integrated and collaborative approach to care services, which is at the core of the Act, and is a statutory requirement of it. The Act provides for regional partnership boards as the driver for the integration agenda. Seven boards have been established across Wales on the health board footprint. They bring together health, social services, the third sector, private providers and citizens. I have met with the chairs of these boards, most recently in July, to discuss their progress in delivering effective and efficient integrated services. I am pleased that these boards are now firmly established, and I pay tribute to their members for their leadership and their hard work to date. The Welsh Government, however, recognises the importance of engaging closely with them to support their ongoing implementation. We have held a series of events across Wales over the last 12 months to support regional boards and consider different aspects of their roles. This support will continue based on what help the partners tell us they need. One of the boards’ notable achievements has been the publication in April of population assessments as required by the Act. I know undertaking these assessments involved a significant process of engagement and analysis. These valuable reports provide a clear evidence base at regional level of the broad range of care and support needs. Partners are now working towards the production of joint area plans in response to those assessments. These plans must be produced by April 2018, and they will set the agenda for regional partnership boards. I have instructed boards to use this process to consider strategically how they will further strengthen their integrated arrangements. Alongside the legal framework of the 2014 Act, Welsh Government is also providing significant financial support to encourage further integrated and collaborative working via the rebranded integrated care fund. A further £60 million has been made available across Wales this year, and our programme for government includes a commitment to retain this important fund. Since it was established in 2014, the ICF has been used to develop a wide range of innovative models of integrated working. These are credited with having helped prevent unnecessary hospital admissions and enabling older people to maintain their independence. The scope of the ICF has gradually expanded so that its objectives now encompass regional partnership boards’ priority areas for integration. Whilst the fund continues to support intermediate care services, it is also being used to support integrated services for people with learning difficulties and children with complex needs, and now carers are within the scope of the fund. These objectives will remain in place for three years, and this will provide more certainty for regions and enable them to plan strategically in response to their population assessments.An independent consultant was commissioned to help regional partnership boards identify good practice in relation to initiatives taken forward through the ICF. The findings have assisted in ensuring the fund’s objectives and improved reporting arrangements now focus on achieving well-being outcomes. Over the summer I visited a number of varied and exciting projects made possible because of the ICF, and saw clearly the positive focus.I’ve decided to commission a large-scale review of the ICF during the next financial year. The purpose of this work will include identifying nationally the benefits of how this money is spent by the regional partnership boards and determining whether value for money has been achieved.I am clear that the positive achievements of the ICF derive from it being spent collectively by partners. Doing things 22 times is not sustainable. The ICF therefore represents one clear example of regional partnership boards delivering their key priority of making more effective use of resources. A further example can be seen in the expectation contained in statutory guidance that partners put in place an integrated commissioning process. This includes joint commissioning strategies as well as common approaches to setting specifications, agreeing fees and quality assurance. This allows local authorities and health boards to focus on improved quality as well as securing better value for money.Regions are required by the Act to establish pooled budgets in relation to the provision of care home accommodation for adults by April 2018. These pooled funds will significantly support, and be a natural progression of, their joint commissioning arrangements. I’ve consistently made clear that my expectation is that these pooled funds are established jointly at the regional level between the health board and all the local authorities within the partnership area. We are all committed to effectively delivering quality services that improve the well-being of our people, and that can only be achieved by determined collaboration between partners that leads to real and sustainable integrated working. Those outcomes cannot be fully achieved by anything less than a full commitment to working together. Local authorities and health boards must have frank conversations about how public money can be used to most effectively address regional needs. This approach to pooled funds is entirely consistent with the proposals for local government reform.Following responses to a consultation in 2015, the requirement for pooled funds for care homes was delayed until April 2018. By any standards, partners have had ample time to plan for this requirement and I asked regional chairs to write to me by the end of September, setting out their progress. Whilst they identified challenges, partners generally expressed their ambitions to move towards regional joint commissioning progress, and I am encouraged by that, but there should be no doubt that this must include working to pooled budgets. The Welsh Government organised a national event to discuss the opportunities and challenges presented by pooled budgets last week. We will arrange additional support for regions in the coming months to help them establish and manage pooled funds on the basis that I outlined earlier. I will assess progress again early in the new year. I acknowledge that regions have made progress in establishing these pooled budgets. I also recognise, however, that there remain issues about some regions’ ability to fully implement this requirement by April. If, however, I am not satisfied with the way this requirement has been delivered in each region by the end of the forthcoming financial year, I will need to consider options for more direct intervention. These are critical services that deal with some of our most vulnerable people. We all recognise the challenges in delivering integrated and collaborative services. It will require new ways of working and significant cultural change. People, however, do not care where health services end or where social services begin. They want seamlessly integrated care and support services, and Welsh Government will continue to provide the leadership and the investment to ensure this essential change. Thank you.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, I’d like to thank you for your statement today. I also welcome the publication of the population assessments, although I am extremely puzzled as to how these health boards and other organisations managed to make strategic plans in the past without such a thing. I am very surprised to hear that it took so long to deliver them, because I would have thought that a key component of understanding what services you need to deliver is to know what the population is that you are serving.Also, just a little bit further on from that, you talk about the fact of the regional boards and that they are to use this as part of the process to consider their strategic involvement. Can you just confirm whether or not the Welsh ambulance service trust is part of that proposal as well, because, of course, they are an integral part of providing joined-up services for health and social care?You talk, Minister, of the integrated care fund, and money is always welcome, there is no doubt about it, however, during the scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s budget, it’s very clear that some health boards are stating that cost drivers and investments in key areas are not being mitigated by the required level of savings that they need to make. So, my question to you is: is this enough? What fallback position do you have, or what are you expecting the health boards and integrated service providers to do in order to make sure that there is enough money within these pools to go forward and provide the services that they need in their particular area? As I say, this is coming through loud and clear in the health committee scrutiny of the Welsh Government budget.What metrics will you be using when you look at your large-scale review of the ICF? Have you actually given thought to how that will—or have your officials given thought to how that will be judged? What benchmarks will you be using? It is a question I raised with the Cabinet Secretary earlier on a previous statement. It’s all very well having these reviews, but you must have a framework within which you know that those reviews can work, and work well.Your statement on integration and partnership working in health and social care today makes no mention of the integration of workforce planning. Will you be looking at that? Will you be asking those regional boards to look at that as part of their work process, going forward? Because there’s no point in having, for example, all the doctors and nurses in the world that we may wish—if only we were in that position—to then find we don’t have enough social workers to get people back out into their homes, et cetera.You also don’t talk about how we can use these boards to foster a culture of innovation. I think what’s becoming very, very clear in both the parliamentary review and in leading evidence that’s being put forward by King’s Fund, et cetera, is that we need to have the ability to enable little green shoots of innovation to gather strength, to make these changes, to make sure that this integration works well. We have to bring on board the private sector into a public sector space. I would be very interested to know how you’re going to make that work and how you are going to be able to manage the not unnatural tension between big public sector monoliths, if you like, and the private care sector and, of course, our local authorities, which, as we already know, are very sad local authorities, having just received their budgets, and are wondering how they are going to be able to perform their part of this deal. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you very much indeed for those questions. You began by talking about the population needs assessments, and they’ve been tremendously useful in identifying some core themes, I think, that stretch across all of those population needs assessments. Loneliness and isolation has come out loud and clear as one of those particular areas across all of those population needs assessments, but poverty and deprivation, the importance to individuals of independence, and the importance of building resilience in individuals and communities, they’ve come across as themes in terms of the ways in which we can address the needs that have been identified within those population needs assessments. The needs assessments themselves cover eight core themes: children and young people, old people’s health, physical disabilities, learning disabilities and autism, mental health, sensory impairment, carers who need support, and violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. So, I think they do give us a very robust and clear picture about the needs of those various different groups of people, right across those regional partnership boards. It’s my intention to publish a national population needs assessment based on what we’ve heard from the population needs assessments at a regional level, because they have been so illuminating and so interesting, so I’ve asked Social Care Wales to undertake that piece of work with a view to reporting in November. That’s the aim: to report at that date.In terms of how regional partnership boards come to an agreement in terms of the pooling of budgets and how much they pool within those budgets, and do they have enough to meet the needs of the people they’ve identified through their population needs assessment, Welsh Government has provided statutory guidance under Part 9 of the Act, which gives an almost step-by-step route to pooled budgets. For example, it starts off with a population needs assessment, but then it moves on to agreeing an appropriate integrated market position statement and a commissioning strategy as a result of that, and agreeing common contracts and specifications, and developing an integrated approach to agreeing the fees with providers, and an integrated approach to quality assurance, whilst at all times maintaining transparency as well. So, those steps along the way should lead to a point where pooled budgets are the next natural progression, and that they’re pooled in a way that is informed and well resourced in order to meet those needs as well. So, those steps have been set out in statutory guidance.You also asked how we can ensure that the ICF allows innovation, and that was one of the purposes that the ICF was set up for in the first place, in order to give people working in the sector and to give leaders in the health and social care sector the okay, if you like, to try different things and to do things differently. Actually, the ICF was set up to encourage innovation, and actually it was okay if things didn’t work; we could learn from that just as well as we learn from things that do work. So, innovation has always been very much at the heart of that, and there are some fantastic examples, of course. You might be aware of the Pembrokeshire Intermediate Voluntary Organisations Team, PIVOT, which has used £160,000 this year of funding to support timely and effective discharges from hospital, and also to improve opportunities for independent living within the community. To date, within this financial year, 1,320 bed days have been saved and 132 hospital admissions avoided, and there have been 80 supported discharges just within that particular project as well. So, lots of exciting things going on, and people thinking in a very different way.In terms of workforce planning, again this is something that Social Care Wales has very much engaged with in terms of their new and expanded responsibilities in terms of the development and oversight of the workforce in Wales. They work very closely within the sector and with the regional partnership boards as well.Finally, you mentioned the private care sector as well, and how we’re ensuring that we recognise the important partners that they are within all of this. Well, the regional partnership boards, through the social services and well-being Act, are mandated to have a representative of the independent sector on each and every one of those regional partnership boards, so that they can give their unique perspective to those boards as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There are two main elements to the statement and I thank the Minister for that statement. The first of those elements is that there’s been some praise of some elements of the integrated care fund—previously the intermediate care fund. I will take this opportunity, if I may, to remind the Chamber that that fund was part of a budgetary agreement with Plaid Cymru, and we’re pleased that we brought that idea to the table because of the way in which we have seen it being developed. The main element of the statement is this broader context of pooling budgets and working in partnership, and I have a number of questions arising from that. The statement suggests that local authorities and health boards somehow aren’t fully committed to these regional boards:Nid oes modd i’r canlyniadau hynny......gael eu cyflawni drwy ddim llai nag ymrwymiad llwyr i gydweithio.What do you think is the main barrier to getting that kind of full commitment to the success of the boards? You remind us that, after consultation, there was a deferral in the need for pooled budgets to care homes until 2018. I agree with you, or with the suggestion, that this provides sufficient time, but, in reading between the lines, it appears that some partners are finding this difficult, still. And in that context, do you, as Minister, regret extending that deadline on the basis that it appears that, whatever the deadline is, certain partners will have difficulty in committing to it?Do you also acknowledge that the separation of health and social care, and the lack of statutory responsibilities, mean that there is always a risk that what partnership working would mean would be managers meeting to argue what their contribution to the pooled budget should be and to ensure that it was as small as possible, and that the limitations of partnership working without statutory obligations are quite clearly displayed? And I may ask, too, for your comments on the alternative option, namely providing a specific budget to the regional boards, rather than the local authorities and the health boards separately.The next question is that the Welsh Government has been against introducing structural changes to merge health and social care, arguing that such changes would be expensive and disruptive too. So, why, then, are you planning to change health in Bridgend from Abertawe Bro Morgannwg to Cwm Taf and not even taking that opportunity to create a more integrated body, where resources would be targeted at front-line services, when you have taken that decision to make a structural change?Next I will remind you of a few Plaid Cymru amendments that were rejected by the Government when the social services Act was discussed. One of those was to allow local authorities to directly employ registered nurses, thereby providing opportunities for them to develop stronger social care. Do you regret not agreeing to those amendments? Also, referring back to what I said earlier, our amendment 2 in order to strengthen the real duty that should be placed on health boards and local authorities to collaborate on merged or pooled budgets; that is, we were saying that they should, rather than ‘they should consider’ or ‘they should be able to’. And finally, today we hear local authorities the length and breadth of Wales responding with some understandable concern in terms of the announcement on their draft budget, that they are facing years of cuts—more cuts. Do you, as Minister, believe that it is possible for social services to maintain the level of service that they currently provide, never mind strengthening and improving those services, within the context of a shrinking budget for local authorities, whilst simultaneously there is an increase in demand for their services? Shouldn’t we, if truth be told, be thinking in earnest about a single budget for health and social care? Because I would argue very strongly that it is misleading to highlight an increase of £200 million in healthcare if social care, which has such a knock-on impact on the NHS, is to see reductions or is at risk of seeing reductions in future years.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much. I would begin by saying that, in those letters to which I referred in my statement, where all chairs of regional partnership boards wrote to me by the end of last month, providing an update on the progress—each of those letters included an update on the progress towards those six different steps towards pooled budgets, which I spoke about in my response to Angela Burns, and it is fair to say that various regions are at different stages on that journey, but we’ve been absolutely clear that Welsh Government will provide whatever support is necessary to get them to the point where they are able to pool those budgets. But there is absolutely no question that all of those regions are fully committed to pooled budgets. I’ve spoken to the chairs of regional partnership boards, I’ve had meetings with the chairs of the health boards, for example, just yesterday, I met with all of the leads in local government who have responsibility for social care, all of whom are completely behind pooled budgets and recognising the importance of it. So, there’s no question, I don’t think, in terms of the commitment to it. In terms of the actual practicality of it, it is a tremendously complex thing to do, but, as I said in my statement, Welsh Government will provide whatever additional support is needed to get to that point.In terms of partnership working, it’s not really about managers talking; the actual real partnership working is what happens in terms of, on the ground, how the individual receiving care and support has that care and support need met. You’ll probably be aware of examples in your own area in north Wales where the regional partnership board has allocated £1 million this year to improve their step up, step down services. So, that’s supporting people who are coming out of hospital who are medically fit but still require some degree of care and support. Over 800 people have already benefitted from this service and more than 2,000 bed days saved as well.Additionally, in the north Wales region, over £1 million of the integrated care fund has been used to establish multidisciplinary, single point of access services, providing information, advice and assistance to individuals in a timely, effective and efficient way. Actually, many of the regional partnership boards have taken that approach in terms of that single point of access, just having seen how effective it is.You referred to Bridgend, and, of course, in the statement to the National Assembly on 18 June, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government said that we proposed that the Cwm Taf local health board boundary should be adjusted to include the Bridgend local authority area. Working with our partners in local government and health boards, the Government will discuss that proposition and develop a formal consultation document and a further statement will be issued on this this autumn. But I can confirm Welsh Government has already begun to engage very closely with the partners in Cwm Taf and the Western Bay regional partnership board about potential transitional arrangements if the boundary of Cwm Taf were to be extended to incorporate Bridgend as well. I think that it’s important that we take all of our regional partnership boards and all of our local authorities and health boards and treat them in the same way, rather than having bespoke arrangements for individual health boards and so on as well.In terms of the specific budget, you’re right, there is more than one way to pool a budget; that’s certainly true. However, the preference has always been to encourage and give the freedom to local authorities and health boards, through the regional partnership boards, to take ownership of it and to take the leadership of the pooling of budgets themselves. I think that’s a more effective way and a more desirable way, certainly, than having Welsh Government impose that pooling on them. However, I’ve made it clear in my statement as well today that, if I’m not satisfied by the progress that has been made, I will consider other ways to pool budgets as well.If I may, just on one more point, you did mention the difficult settlement that local authorities are having to deal with. It’s the result of seven years of austerity and diminishing funds to Welsh Government, and of course you will have read the Minister’s statement, outlining the settlement that has been made. However, I do think that collaboration and partnership working does provide local authorities with opportunities in the sense that, when pooled budgets do come into place and we commission jointly those adult care home places, there’s great opportunity actually to be doing things seven times rather than 22 times, sharing expertise and sharing the benefits of those wider commissioning arrangements as well. So, there are opportunities, certainly, with this approach.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. The 1000 Lives campaign has shown what is possible when we are united in the pursuit of a single aim—an aim of improving each patient’s experience of the care they receive. The enthusiasm and commitment of healthcare teams is highly admirable. Working together by following an evidence-based approach, they have continued to produce positive results and make significant improvements to patients’ experiences and safety. We must therefore acknowledge that, however hard we try, human error continues to be a fact of life. Therefore, we must continue to explore positive reforms to the management of our health service, and at all times prioritise patient care and safety.First of all, we must recognise the scope of any issues and problems and make a clear commitment to change flawed systems that fail patients during their treatment and care. Improving each patient’s experience within our Welsh NHS requires everyone within it to work collaboratively with both the patient and their families. A vital component to improving the experiences of patients and staff is cohesion between health services and social care, and, where this fails, the consequences can be severe. An example that I have mentioned in this Chamber, but I feel it is important to raise, was the case of the 83-year-old gentleman from my region in South Wales West who underwent major surgery and subsequent treatment, and he experienced the flaws in the system and failed to benefit from collaborative care between health and social services. There simply was no plan when he was released from the hospital and no-one was told he was coming home from the hospital, and he’d had a triple heart bypass at 83 years of age. So, does the Minister therefore agree with me that integration between these services must include streamlining the information patients are obliged to submit, thereby preventing a patient from having to give, as in this case, the same information to multiple agencies and professionals and in the end not achieving the result, improving the information sharing, which, in this case, didn’t happen, and ensuring health and social care services complement each other, establishing greater co-ordination between the two? Do you consider the role of local authorities in this instance to be positive? What experiences have you had when you’ve been negotiating, talking to, local authorities regarding these issues? One of the major challenges that faces the smooth transition from health services to social care is the delayed transfers of care. Since the middle of the last decade, we’ve witnessed rapid improvements in the number of people who experience delays. Indeed, the number has come down from 775 in the quarter ending in December 2004 to 472 in the quarter ending December last year. We all know workforce planning is vitally important, and each health board has stated that the cost of agency staff because of shortages is really eating into their budget and absorbs an awful lot of cost. So, this is a huge task, and I ask how you will address this issue, please.Despite this considerable decrease in delayed transfers of care, it is noticeable that, since 2010, the number of delayed transfers of care has plateaued. I appreciate that there is always going to be a fluctuation in these figures. However, in 2013, there were 5,393 delayed transfers of care compared with nearly 6,000 in 2016. So, one of the main causes for these delays is the availability of beds, since the 2010 number of available beds has decreased by 15 per cent. At a time when Wales is experiencing increasing demands on the NHS service, the provision of beds is fundamental to reducing the number of delayed transfers of care. So, the 15 per cent reduction puts further strain on services and has an adverse effect on a patient’s experience. So, in particular, elderly people are suffering delays in their care, often left in hospital because there is no place for them to go—so, services, which in recent years have experienced cuts to their budget, exacerbating the problem further. Does the Minister agree with me that the Welsh Government must address the number of readily available beds to relieve pressure in Welsh hospitals and, furthermore, do everything within its power to prevent the closure of care homes across Wales?Cuts to social services budgets have placed greater pressure on social care when patients are transferred from hospital. This is especially relevant to the elderly, many of whom experience a delay in their transfer and are reliant, therefore, on social services for the essential support that they receive. For example, Cardiff Council faces severe cuts to its budget over the next three years. The council has already made £200 million-worth of savings in the last 10 years. If further cuts—[Interruption.] If further cuts are to be made to council budgets such as Cardiff’s, then the capabilities of social services are going to be increasingly restricted, leaving many patients, both young and old, without essential care.If social services are unable to keep up with the demand, then there is inevitably going to be a knock-on effect on the availability of beds in hospitals. So, this has a further effect on the transfer of care, causing greater obstacles to providing integrated care services.As councils, not just here in Cardiff, but throughout the whole of Wales, face economically challenging times, will the Minister prioritise vital funding for the provision of social care for the elderly and the most vulnerable in our society, and consider the recommendations I gave earlier in my speech, ensuring that all in our health service benefit from collaborative health and social care? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you very much for those questions and begin by also recognising your comments particularly on the enthusiasm and commitment of the people who are working on the front line in health and social care—I’ve seen that for myself when I’ve visited many of the ICF projects that are taking place across Wales. I’d certainly, as always, encourage Members to go and visit the projects to be inspired by the kind of innovative working and sheer enthusiasm that people have working on the ground through the ICF.Also, you said about the importance of prioritising the individual, and that’s exactly what the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 sets out to do, in the sense that it puts the individual at the heart of the decisions that are made about them. It’s about personal outcomes, having that ‘what matters’ conversation with them to understand what it is that the individual would like to achieve, and understanding that they are equal experts alongside the professionals—they’re the experts in their lives, so they should be treated as equal experts in those conversations.You also made the point that the cohesion of health and social services is absolutely crucial, and I couldn’t agree with you more. You gave a very distressing case as an example of just why it’s so important that we do have cohesion between health and social services. Again, this is something that the integrated care fund seeks to deliver. For example, in Cwm Taf, they’ve spent £1 million to develop a Stay Well @home service. That’s operated seven days a week, 365 days a year, and it consists of a multidisciplinary team based at the hospital, in the Royal Glamorgan and Prince Charles hospitals. They undertake initial assessments of individuals and commission or provide health, social care and third sector community support to facilitate the safe and timely return home of people and prevent unnecessary admission in the first place, so making sure that people do have that wide package of support around them, taking in health, social care and the third sector to ensure that there is a package to allow people to stay home.You also talked about the importance of people not having to give their story many times, because that can be distressing and there’s absolutely no need for it in a time when we have such access to technology and so on. That, actually, is one of the things that they’re using in the Stay Well @home service in Cwm Taf. We’ve also invested £2 million of the ICF this year specifically in the Welsh community care information system, and that’s gone live between health and social services in Powys, in the first instance, so they have access to the same kind of information. I was happy to launch that particular initiative fairly recently, and had the opportunity to talk to staff, who said what a difference it makes to be able to access the information about the individual on the same level between health and social services. It’s gone live also in local authorities in Bridgend, Anglesey, Gwynedd, the Vale of Glamorgan, Ceredigion and Torfaen. Powys is the only area where it’s fully integrated at the moment, but we are moving towards that, and have provided £6.7 million of capital funding, actually, for the initial set-up and costs for an all-Wales licence—just demonstrating the priority that we are putting on that particular initiative. I’m not sure I recognise the figures that you quoted on detox in terms of them being up-to-date figures, because they have certainly decreased again since the figures that you quoted to us. The total now is 7 per cent down on the same period last year, and in common with all the totals, actually, in the current year, it’s lower than any of the totals reported in the previous two years for the same months. So we are certainly making good progress, and this is at a time when individuals’ needs are escalating, as we have an ageing population, and so on. So this is certainly an area where we’re making very good progress.One of the things that interested me when I first came into post in terms of delayed transfers of care was the fact that, actually, a large number of the delays are down to an individual’s choice. So, not being able to access their first-choice care home, for example. Lots and lots of the delays are down to that, which is why the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 is so important in terms of driving up standards right across the sector so that people don’t have such a difficult choice to make when they’re weighing up the choices between two different care homes. Actually, we want to have a care home sector where all of the care homes are attractive to the individual, so there won’t be such reticence in terms of making those difficult choices as well.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you for today’s statement, Minister. I’m sure there’s consensus in the Chamber that social care is one of the biggest issues and the growing challenges of our time and we need to better link up and have collaboration between health and social care to meet these challenges, and the question is, really, how we best do that in practice. Minister, you mentioned in your statement the responsibility of regions to establish these pooled budgets for the provision of care home accommodation for adults by April 2018, and I’m grateful for your previous responses on this. I just wonder whether you could add how this will work in practice and where we are in terms of making sure it does work effectively in practice. You also highlight the importance of collaboration; are you able to expand on this and do you agree that collaboration in terms of pooled budgets and the integration agenda should include effective cross-party working? And the final point I want to make is: what consideration has been, or could be, given to how existing community assets could be better used or given a new purpose and use in an innovative and collaborative way to meet both the social care and health needs of the community—in particular in terms of looking at that kind of medical respite care gap for the elderly, the most vulnerable and frail, working hand in hand alongside social care? Is there also consideration of the role that, perhaps, the third sector could play in terms of maintaining and sustaining facilities to make sure that is better able to happen?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for those questions. You’re absolutely right that social care and social services are some of the big challenges that we’re facing in our time, and that’s why, in our programme for government, Welsh Government recognised the sector as a sector of national strategic importance. I’m really pleased that, within ‘Prosperity for All’ it has been recognised as one of the five key areas that can make the most difference to the people of Wales, and I think that’s really, really positive. In terms of how pooled budgets work in practice, we’ve provided the statutory guidance to local authorities to describe that, and really pooled budgets are about an integrated approach to agreeing the fees with providers, agreeing specifications, and agreeing those financial commitments that each of the parties within the partnership will make. The cross-party issue you suggested is actually very interesting in the sense that regional partnership boards are made up of partners brought together from across the sectors. So it is important that there is good cross-party working, and I certainly haven’t had any information to suggest otherwise. The third sector also are absolutely crucial partners, and that’s why, actually, on regional partnership boards, there’s a mandate for two people to be representing the third sector on those regional partnership boards, and I think that just is symbolic, really, of the importance that Welsh Government attaches to the role that the third sector can play in terms of meeting social care needs and also the expertise that they bring and the fact that they are very, very close to the grass roots, so that they can certainly be a voice for people who they represent as well. The ICF also has a £10 million capital funding element to it, and that certainly does provide opportunities, perhaps, to make adaptations to existing facilities, and so on, in order to make them suitable to meet people’s needs. We’ve seen examples of this in some of the step-up, step-down services, for example, which have been tremendously successful in terms of preventing unnecessary hospital admissions, but also facilitating an earlier return home.

Suzy Davies AC: Just to develop this question of the regional partnership and the relationship between the pooled budgets, you explained to Hannah Blythyn that a whole variety of people can be involved in the regional partnership who will be responsible for spending that pooled budget, but the pooled budgets—if I understand the regulations correctly—are drawn from the LHB and local authority, not from other sources as well. If you bear in mind the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 as well, do the LHBs and local authorities have any freedom to invite other partners to contribute to a pooled budget? I’m not clear from the legislation whether that’s possible. In those circumstances, or even if it’s just the LHB and the councils, obviously the amount that people put into pooled budgets is going to be different. Is there any weighting in real life with the people who are the most generous contributors to that pool, if I can put it that way? I know there shouldn’t be, but are you getting any sense from your visits that that might be a bubbling-under trend? Citizens, of course, are part of the regional partnerships. You’ve spoken to the heads of these boards now. Can you give me some idea what citizen involvement actually looks like? It would be shocking to think that they’re just add-on advisers at some point, rather than being front and centre of these plans. And then finally, I’m glad to hear that you’re evaluating the rebranded ICF; I notice you said that. Can you just give us some reassurance that the key performance indicators that you’ll be looking at in that—you didn’t quite answer Angela Burns’s question on this—won’t be significantly different from the KPIs that were originally anticipated when the unrebranded fund was set up? I think we need the confidence that there won’t be any changes on your targets, if I can put it like that, that would disguise shortcomings, unexpected or otherwise; I think we’d just rather know the truth. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, and that’s one of the reasons that I’ve commissioned this large-scale look—or that I will be commissioning in the next financial year—at the ICF, and that is to find out the truth: you know, what kind of value for money are we having? We’ve already had the work done looking at examples of good practice, so we know that exists, but actually we need to be understanding the true value for money, and so on. In terms of the specifications of that piece of work, they haven’t yet been determined. So, obviously, I’ll be very much open-minded on that. You’re absolutely right; the citizen involvement and citizen engagement have to be very central to the work of the regional partnership boards. The work that they did in terms of developing the population needs assessments was very wide-ranging, and there was certainly citizen involvement there. But on the regional partnership boards as well, there are service users and carers represented on those boards. It’s really important that they have a strong voice, as well as through citizens’ forums and so on, in terms of ensuring that, as the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 would have us do, putting the individual and the service user right at the centre as well. So, that’s absolutely critical. And, of course, the regional partnership boards do have a duty to make the local population aware of the work that they’re undertaking as well. I know that’s something that’s going to be discussed in the meeting with the chairs of the boards that is taking place tomorrow, actually. In terms of who puts how much into the fund, that’s very much left for local determination, and I think that is the right thing to do in terms of allowing the partners to take that collaborative and innovative look together in terms of how they can come to an agreement as to who puts what into the fund. I know that those are not easy discussions but, actually, with the enthusiasm that there has been and the commitment that there has been from all of the partners involved, I’m confident that they can have those conversations without Welsh Government assisting.

Thank you, Minister. That bring today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:54.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Vikki Howells: Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government’s response to recent incidences of overcrowding on valley lines rail services?

Mark Drakeford: We are continuing to work with Arriva Trains Wales to deliver additional capacity on the Valley Lines. We will introduce our own new rail services contract next year which will deliver an increase in the availability of high quality rolling stock and improvements in services for passengers.

Nick Ramsay: Will the First Minister make a statement on levels of funding for local authority services in Monmouthshire?

Mark Drakeford: The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government will be announcing the provisional local government settlement for 2018-19 later today. This will include details of the core Welsh Government funding for Monmouthshire County Council.

Angela Burns: What is the Welsh Government doing to encourage inward investment into Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Wales is seen as a desirable and successful place to do business by companies headquartered overseas and in other regions of the UK. For the last three consecutive years, investment into Wales has been at the highest levels ever recorded, creating and safeguarding tens of thousands of Welsh jobs.

Suzy Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government conducts its consultation processes?

Mark Drakeford: We consult in accordance with legal requirements and the various commitments that we have made, in ways designed to inform Welsh Ministers' decisions.

Jenny Rathbone: What representations has the Welsh Government made to the UK Government about the roll-out of universal credit across Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I am deeply concerned by the impact of universal credit full service on people in Wales. The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children wrote last week to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions calling for a pause of the universal credit full service roll-out in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the First Minister make a statement on the availability of beds in community hospitals in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I expect the Betsi Cadwaladr university health board to plan and provide services that meet the needs of their people. This includes the provision of sufficient numbers of hospital beds to meet local expected demand, taking into account fluctuations in demand that occur throughout the year.